HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes 08/23/1999August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 369
1 City of Petaluma, California
2 ..'Minutes of a Regular
3 .City Council Meeting "
4
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6 ...Monday, August 23, 1999
7 . " ~ Council Chambers
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9 The City Council of the City of Petaluma mete on this day in the Council Chambers at
l0 6:40 p.m. _ ._
Ll ..
12 ROLL CALL . .
13 .. ,.-_
14 PRESENT: Cader-Thompson, Hamilton, -Healy, Keller; Maguire, Thompson
is ABSENT: Torliatf 'u
16 -
17 PUBLIC COMMENT
is .. ~ -
19 None ~~-~ ~ ~ =
20 _
21 CLOSED SESSI:O;N
,.
22 ~ ~ "
23 City Attorney Richard Rudnansky announced the following Closed Session
24 Items:
as , .
26 1. CONI=ERENCE UVITH LEGAL COUNSEL , EXISTING LITIGATION (Subdivision
27 (a) of Government Code § 549.56.9.) Aigner, et al vs. City of Petaluma, et al.,
2s Sonoma.County Superior Court.Case No. 220938.
29
3o NO REPORTABLE ACTION TAKEN
31
32 ADJOURNMENT
33
34 6.,:55 p.m.
3s
36
37
3g ~ Special Meeting
39 IVI011Clay, August 23, i 999
40 7 ~ ~ p. n1.
41
42 ROLL CALL
43
44 PRESENT: Cader-Thompson, Hamilton, Healy; Keller, Maguire, Thompson, Torliatt
4s ABSENT: None .
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Vol. 33, Page 370 .August 23, 1999
i PLEDGE OF'ALLEGIAIVCE .r
2
3 At the request of Mayor Thompson, Qenn'is DeVllitt led the Pledge of Allegiance.
4
s MOMENTOF'SILENCE. "
6 - ~ o
~ At the request of Mayor Thompson, a Moment. of :Silence was observed.
a ~ ,
9 PUBLIC COMMENTS
io
1 i Paul Kilbride, fgmeless, spolze regarding -the. Homeless community and the :Police
12 Department.
13 ~ - ..
i4 Larry Jonas spoke regarding the Ramela~. Place Subdivision and (Site Pfan and:.
rs Architectural Review Committee) S'PARC.
Council. Member Caller-Thompson acknowledged that Mr. Jonas didn':t develop that
area and appreciated his,comments about SPARC.
CO.UIVCIL CQMMEIVTS
G 1.
22 Council Member- Keller sfated that the Sonoma County ,Board of Supervisors were. ao
23 meet on August 24, 1999 at 7:00 p.m. regarding the Sonema County Outd:ogr
24 Recreation Plan and encouraged the communifyto atfend. '
Zs
a6 Council Member Caller-Thompson encouraged people to attend the meeting"on August
2~ 24th. She expressed :appreciation for the hard work .of th:e volunteers at the. Animal'.
2s Shelter during its transition.:
29
3o Council Member Healy spoke re°garding an article in the Argus Courier about the
3i County UUater Agency's plans for a new south county'transrroission project and that the:
32 period for written comments on this initial scoping session for their EIR (Environmental
33 Impact Report) process closed August:2b. He wanted a,lettersent askinga_hat they cast
34 ,their net more widely with ,respect. to the portion of the project from the central part of
3s Petaluma to the south of town. There were alternative pipeline variations north of town
36 into the, central :part of town, once if gets, to Petaluma Boulevard and Oak Street, He
3~ thought the Water Agency strongly preferred a single, route that.. would go underneath
3s ~Ke,ller Street, past the Keller :Street Garage and then the.~enti're length of 5th ;Street, with
39 .a forty-tw„o (42) to forty-eight (48) inch wafer pipe... He thoughf that would be very
4o disruptive.... He ~eommented that. since the point. of the ELF3 .process was to look at
4i alternatives they needed to look at: alternatives to have an adequate ELR. He
a2 recommended and re.queste,d~ that they consider routes that didn't go through highly
43 developed residential or commerciaf neighborhoods, that.. they consider routes that
44 scope the outskirts of the: City. He thought- fHat 'the urban separator on the' east side is
4s cerfanly one place that should be considered
August 23, 1999 vol. 33,'Page 371
i Council Member Tor,latt hpp•ed that the Council would have a discussion about that.
2 She agreed a letter be sent a aetfer, but wanted to agendize -the topic for discussion by
3 Council.
4
s Council concurred.
6
~ AGENDA, CHANGES. A'DD9ThONS AND DELETIONS
s
9 (Clerk's note:. At the request of .the £ity Manager, the following is a verbatim
io transcription of the meeting).
ii
i2 Mayor Thompson: J would like to move Item #3, the .Discussion .and Possible Action
13 on Request from Sonoma County Transit Authority (SCTA) for reconfirmation of Council
. 14 support on Measure B, Transportation Projects.
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16 UNFINISHED BUSINESS
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is City :Manager Fred Stoucler: If we could proceed-with this in .order for me to schedule
- - 19 issues that Ms. Wilford has, so if that's okay with the Council we would like to discuss
Zo this one first. You .have the information. Do you have some brief introductory
. 21 comments or just want to take questions?
a ~ 22
- 23 SCTA Executive. Director Suzanne Wilford: I'd ,be, happy to give an overview or if
24 Council would just want to take up the item, that would be fine.
- Zs
26 :Mayor Thompson: How about atwo-minute quick overview, I mean for the pubfic as
27 well. ,.
28 _
29 Ms. Wilford: As many of you are aware, Senator Burton has introduced legislation at
3o the State level that will call for a statewide. half=cent sales tax :increase for transportation
_ 3i projects. This is an item that would be on the ballot in November of 2000 and in order
3a to qualify for the funds., not only does_ the measure have to pass statewide, it has fo
33 pass in the County and` the County has to have an expenditure plan adopted priorto the
•s4 election in .November. 'The SCTA has been working., with the S.enator's office on this bill.
_ 35 and ,at their last. meeting directed staff to ,go out into all of the cities in' the County and
36 seek. reconfirmation of :each City's support for the projects that were set.. forth in
37 Measure B that was passed by the voters h November of 1998. That's the one-minute
3s version.
39
4o Council Member Hamilton: .Suzanne, for Rainier or alternative, it says $27 million. I
41 recall when. it was on the ballot measure.; it was. $15 or ,$t6 million. How is $27 million
42 the total?
43
44 Council. Member Torliatt: My bigger question on that is are these actually the dollar
4s figures that we are allocating or are there different figures?
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Vol. 33, Page 372 .August 23, 1999
p e estimated costs of ,projects for he 101 project, they are
9 .
2 fas.more s ec f ce andr Hi hhway 116. ;project than say, the .rail capital and operating:
3 those are I guess m.o:re concep,.tual; estimates: 1Ne're `working on a study that will.. be
4 completed at the end of the calendar year that will .hopefully give us some more
s concrete operating and: capital, cost numbers, but. :the numbers you, see fdr Highway
6 101,. Highway- 116, come from: CalTrans and tFieir cost estimates for each of those
projects. The $27 million dollar estimate for, Rainier; my undersfanding. oc my
8 .recollection of this; forgive ;rne if it is not completely accurate,. my recollection i`s that was
9 the .total cost ;of the project - or the total dollar amount that was requested be: put in, fo:r
to the cost of "the „p"roject and it `wouldn't all, come from the sales tax. There were
11 developer fees that were-,.included in that as well. The following,, f believe the last page
12 of that handout, includes a list. of~ revenue sources. The project :costs here exceed the
13 :amount ofi revenue :that'`would be taken. in from a sales tax. This assumes some State.
1.4 and 'Federal funding, :as well as fare box recovery from. transit and local contributions
is such -as developer fees.
16
17 Council Member Hamilton;. So this 'is only alist -this is the wish list that we want to
is complete: and then the sources are .going. to be varied.; that',s what you are saying:
19 think we should change the :Warne from ,Rainier because we~voted not to go forward with
20 that ands we should name that Corona. -
21
22 Mayor Tho.mp"son: Sure; we voted on Corona.
23
24 Council Member Cader-Thompson: Excuse rne, Mr. Mayor; what about, Caulfield ~-
2 was alsq something. thaf: has been talked about in the past,. and I felt likes 'Caulfield -..
26 should be part of this and as far as my understanding.of the $27 million.;., that was the
z~ total cost, but that :wasn't the. total. cost because `the 'cost is 'higher because I .remember ~ -
2a Ovals gomgtto be even thouklhgt wlas an~pl oaeo~ nuhis and if was just the number that
g __mber., so it seems like these should
3o be updated and' corrected .considering that it was brought to people's attention. ~ ~ --
31
32 Ms. Wilford: Okay.
33 '~
34 Council Member Healy: Suzanne, :is the point,: of this request at this point. in .time -
3s which is 15 months before the election to go to Senator, Burton and see if there `is a
3~ possib`ility of him amending' the bill fo 'incorporate Measure B" as :opposed- to ".having
37 Sonoma Chanty go through the normal process set forth in SCA3?
38
39 Ms. Wilford: That was the initial intent. of''.the SCTA to see if Senator Burton-could in
4o fact: amend 'th'e, legislation or needed to amend the legislation to allow Measure B to
41 qualify as the expenditure plan... In working with- his staff over the past few ..months;
42 Legislative. Council i_n Sacramento is not looking favorably upon, singling out Sonoma
43 County as a single. entity in the Constitution. to have an exception. in this amendment.; iri
44 this legislation.., And o given that, Senator Bu.rton's Office said they could push the
4s matter,. but they have.n'f yet and. so .what- staff is doing in the meantime is~ trying to
August 23, 1999
Vol. 33, -Page 373
1 determine whether or not there's support for, Measure B. or whether or not we need. to
2 reopen the discussion completely`
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Council Member iiealy: So :fo follow •up.on~ that,. even tho-ugh there isn't - if the
language of the Bill isn`t amended to spec~ificaslly accommodate Measure B, the Board
of Supervisors and the Councils of the cities in the County have the option of simply
approving Measure B once we'gef'closer to that point, is that correct?
Ms. Wilford: That's correct. Tlieairning of this is such that the SCTA, if it in fact is the
lead agency, the. countywide agency that would take this on, would need to have. the
cities and the County approve the plan by June. 1, 200.0. That's the deadline that-will be
set forth in the legislation. The, desire to ,kind of .get .started early and get it done in time
was something .that the SCTA felt was importanf because if Measure B is in fact
acceptable,. which it has been., seven of the City Councils have passed resolutions
reaffirming their support for Measure B. If Measure B is in fact the expenditure plan,
then we can kind of set that aside and move on.
Council Member Healy:. IVIy concern and some of this has dovetailed in comments
from. other Councif members is that to some extent there have been events: since
Measure B was put in place. that make the assumptions underlying it incorrect. There
have been funding secured for certain portions of roads that wasn't assumed to be
available in Measure B. The big eye opener to me; quite frankly, was what .happened.
south of the County line with Marin County defeating its transit measure by a much
wider measure Phan what happened here so I think we are faced with a situation where
SCA3 gives us a realistic. opportunity to do something like Measure B up here in
Sonoma. County, but. I have very little confidence. that our friends south: of the County
line are .going to do anything and so one thing that I would .like to revisit and just to back
up - I think Measure: 'B needs "to~b'e the ,starting .point of any discussion. I have: no
question with that,. but I Think that my personal, feeling is that. it would .help to update.
The one other area, as I was, starting to.: say that 1 think we should look at is if we
approve rail :funding up here in ,Sonoma County, but Marin County isn't enlightened as
us in That regard, I don't want to:~liave a. rail system that stops at the County line and
then tell people fo .get off behind the' old drive-in heater and find a way to .get to work so
would like to see; a mechanism .so that we're increasing inter-county bus service. If
Marin. C-ounty doesn't. ,pass rail and: that's one area., I, think. we would be remiss as a
Council. if we allowed something to. go forward-that .doesn't provide additional transit to
people go'i'ng south of the County line.
Ms. Wilford: If I could just briefly. respond„ the:' :way the ,process is set up in the
legislation is an expenditure plan must:. be.put forward; and approved by a majority of.the
cities representing a` majority of the population, andthat County Board of .Supervisors.. If
in fact -let me back up just a little bit -the-impetus for`this legislation has come from
counties that have an existing, sales tax... Many of ~th:ose counties, they have a tax. that
won't expire for another eight (8) fo ten (1:0) years so they are trying to make essentially.
thirty (30)-year plans, plans that will start in ten (i0) years and last for twenty (20).
Because of that, there is a provision in the egislation• that allows you to amend your
Vol. 33, Page 374 `Augusf23, 1999
i expenditure :plan. It requires atwo-,,third''s; vote .ot the majority of the cities and .the
2 Board of Supervisors and it also -- or it can~'be done,,by a vote of the people. So there
3 are mechanisms `that allow arnendmenfs Ito the plan if. ~f,or same reason it was decided
4 that rail was .not feasible because. Marie C:ounty,. wasn't doing it or a single county
s operation was :determined not to be desirable.
6
~ Council IVlember Healy: I understand. that. I'm 'not saying that if we pass :rail. funding
8 up here, but Marie doesn't; that we won`t have any light rail. I'm saying that some
9 portion of the operating and capital expenses, that would;-:have gone to support' _rail south.
ro of Petaluma to fhe County line, for instance; should "be shifted over to .bus service or
i i something like. if so that we can get some real .relief and although I do realize that the
I2 thing can be amended,. 'if you, are talking about: super majority votes of different
,13 agencies.,. I think it is very important: to get it right .the first time. Not only ,is. it dfficult'fo
14 get two-thi"rd's majority, but it" would create a political problem; with people saying you
is sold us one, thing and now you want to do something. else with it and I am sure: you can
i6 see where that would go.
~~
is Council Member Keller: Thanks, Suzanne:, for coming down to talk to us about this..
i9 Just to clarify,; under the plan amendments you said two-third's vote of the cities -- that
20 would be six cities 'in Sonoma County, plus-two=third's vote of the Board ofi Sups or vote
2i of the people -- would the vote of the people be majority or two-thirds?
22
23 Ms. Wilford: L believe it is simple majority. I don't have the bill 'in front of~ me l
24 apologize.
Zs
26 Council Member Keller:~ Qne of'the questions; that'has been raised to me has been
a~ the sources of funds. Ifi we adopt the:'Measure B 'list as it was written, as the: other cities
2a ,have done, the question that comes flash"i'ng forward is .CalTrans is already paying for
29 some of this. So if we keep: those items on the list! 1N~ilfo,rd Avenue section., the south of
30 'Petaluma, from the bridge south,, which CalTrans has already bid .on that hook,, my
31 concern is that essentially if we kkeep th.e Gist the way, it 'is, we. a're' saying toy the' public;
3z CalTrans -- trust us, CalTrans will pony up! their money .even though w.e've collected
33 another $170 million bucks to a for-~those
34 and, not :ask the taxpayers herep o bring- it outprojeets and they'll keep it in their budget
;,of th'e sales tax; I think that is an artifice.
3s I can't politically understand for a moment why .CalTrans would ever want to spend
36 something out.of th.ei.r budget when a local county has ponied. up the same money for
37 the same projects. CalTrans would rather take their," money and spend if on''some other
3s political project other thane. up here. So to.prevent CalTrans from essentially helping 'us
39 doub, a dip on the taxpayers in~ Sonoma County, I:d like to know' whether or not' there is
4o away o.'f reducing this list by the commitrnerits that'CalTrans has already indicated .they
41 are willing to makes and that leads us fo, then wer don't. need as much: money, can we
42 ask for a quarter percent sales tax. I know.:discussion has been going on with Burfon's
43 office about whether or `not" an individual county could propose .a_ quarter cent
44 transportation sales: tax, instead of being required to~ take a~half percent:, What's; your
4s current understanding on that' ~ ~ .
46 ~ .
.August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page. 375.
i Ms. Wilford: In talking with "Senator'Burton's staff, my understanding is that :he had a
2 conversation with the Legislative Council. and that it is not possible to allow a stafewide
3 tax to have varying amounts in, counties that would snake it a Special tax.. specific to a
4 county. It is a statewide half-cent. sales tax period so they cannot write it in such a way
s to allow up to a half-cent to be imposed county-by-county depending on wheat -that
6 county so desired.
s Council .Member Keller: Which leaves us with a major political. problem because what
9 we'd be telling the voters is, we're going to ask for more money than we need in our
io plan or we're going to ask for enough money to let CalTrans go spend their money
-~ ~ ii somewhere else. I don't,.think that is going to fly politically. I think it's a major fly in the
12 ointment because I don't think voters are -voters had a. hard time with the way our
13 funds were allocated in the first place and I think they are going to have a very
14 significant hard time if they say, hey .look it, you know I'rrm paying gas tax, I'm ,paying
is road taxes.,. I'm paying all my other use fees: for vehicles and now CalTrans is not going
i6 to spend that money in Soroma County because we guys have been suckered into a
i~ half cent sales tax.
is
. 19 Ms.. Wilford:. There are. several ways that counties have. dealt with being aself-help.
zo county. Alameda County,. for, example, they have a specific. number of projects with a
21 specific dollar amount and those are the only projects that get done. with those :dollars:,
a2 In other counties such as Santa Clara or Contra Costa, they don't. view the sales tax as
23 a single revenue. source. attached to single projecfs and they've been able to leverage
24 state .and federal funds to do projects by essentially having matching funds from their. -
Zs local source so .I fhirik :there are a couple of ways to look at it or approach it. You: could
26 approach it in the Alameda. County manner which I think would require that the;
2~ specificity of th_e ,projects match up with the dollar amount. as anticipated .or you can.
Zs take it with the Santa Clara or Contra Costa. approach which requires that the flexibility
29 essentially of being able to pursue. .state and federal dollars above and beyond whaf
3o comes back to us on a formula basis by allowing us to have matching funds that. prove
31 to that entity, be it the state or federal: government that we are serious about a project
3z and would pony up local funds for it.
33
34 Council Member Keller: In that .case., we better have. a list primed that. the County :has:
3s agreed ~to th'at says if we are getting money from CalTrans for T01 widening and for the
36 Santa Rosa project, then this is the next cut and. if .we don't have that and that!s
37 probably $170-180 million dollars on this list that then becomes a slush fund.. I think the
3s voters are going to want to know. how is that. money going to get spent and not just say
39 we'll figure it out later:. That's the same problem we ran into this. time.
40
41 Council ,Member Torl'att: And I guess the. next, issue that comes up with that where.
42 has been rumblings about: whether SCTA is actually going to be the body that .has
43 authority over the ._monies or if there is going to be some sort of language incorporated
44 in .the Burton bill to allow the supervisors to have control of that money and thata of
4s concern when you have additional funds out there and local jurisdiction don't have any
46 particular say 'in it other than your representative through the Board of Supervisors.
Vol. 33, Page 376 August 23, 1999
1 Another issue .or a correction, this says East 1Nashi,ngton; Avenue - -,I don't, think that
2 exists -it's East Washington Street and I also in reading this and; being at SCTA have
3 the same issue as Council .Member i<eller has talked about with funded projects that
4 are. still.on this list,.at leastthrough C:alTrans. I guess they are. fundedprojects and that
9 Y q_ Y ,
6 I ststhatnCa Trbans is currentlto eithe S~do nnn a Pro ect rStudy ReJects that are on this
y g ~ y port (PSR) or have
~ funded?
s ~ .
9~ Ms. Wilford: There's one Line, Steele to 1Nilford, including, the ;interchanges for eight
to five million dollars ($85,OOQ,:000), that is funded. The bridge to the County line segment
11 that. was referred: to pearlier has been funded for an environmenfal study. It; i an
12 estimated wo hundred sixteen million dollar ,($216,000;000) project and we have twelve
r3 million dollars .($12,000,000),
14
is Council. Member Torliatt And then .the other .issue Ghat h"as been brought up is the
r6 dollar figures` that is on this and I really think we need to update those on .all of the
1~ projects if we are going #o actually.be voting on this piece of paper.. if'we are ;going to
rs just be voting on projects, then that's a different issue.
19
20 Council Member flllaguire: Thank. you for coming, .Suzanne.` :I've. Pbee,n re octant to
2,l have to go through the other iteration. o'f, amending theMeasure, B list personally., but it.
z2 looks like because of. what:°s being funded on CaLT,rans and the impact on.ttie list and
23 how you are going 'tb' deaL with that:. politically or fi'nancially'that we really do need to go
24 through that.. I don't think we are prepared to have "the discussion here tongla and
2s actually SCTA and maybe yourself, Suzanne, can help that discussion by looking at the
26 dollar amounts_ that are specified'.. already and what the next cu't on the list will, be: But
27 really; what we are talking about is going` back through the rest of the County and it'is a
2s laborious and aims=consuming process, one ~thaf took a lot of time the last time around,
29 and of course, it' was very :contentious and the Measure B Fist. is a~ compromising and
3o think it is a pretty good one and I think, the basis for continuing discussion :and
31 compromise still exist, within it_, but, it may mean.. sending 'Suzanne an, d SCTA back' to
32 every City Council in' the County to say, well;; you ;know; these ones: have changed' and
33 what do we want: to pick for our next. choices, .but I don't see any other .way around.
34 .That's one cornrnent and if you have any ideas, l would like to hear them, Suzanne.
35 '
36 Ms. Wilford:. I don't know it is necessarily an idea that. essenti'all_y -- there :are three
37 ways to kind gf',look at' what. the issue is before the Council and before the SCTA: You
3s have M'e.asure B which was p,ut together after.,, as you mentioned, much pain and
39: heartache and se~eraf years and what appeared ;before the voters_ d.id not have dollar
a,o figures in it and there has been some criticism.: that it didn't have sufficiecna backup
41 material so. option number one 'is :really reconfirming support for Measure B as it is -
42 there you have it. Option number two is fairly similar to that, except it's making clean=up
43 amendments, I guess you could say, whether it's- removing Rainier, removing the
44 project that has been funded, something .,like that, you knUw, is option number two.
4s Option number three is reopening the discussion completely and maybe not necessar.ily~
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33; Page 377
i starting from scratch; but essentially opening it up to completely new discussion and
2 saying Measure B is not the preferred choice of this Council or the SCTA or whomever.
3
4 Council '.Member Maguire: Were you alluding to a measure., an option for I think. you..
s said the Santa Clara approach, where you said you could go after state and' federal.
6 funding. Is that a case where my understanding of Burton's bill was that you had to.
7 have a pretty specific list and that sounded like that was not specific. Could you clarify
s that?
9
io Ms. Wilford: The. specificity of the list, that Senator Burton's legislation regwires is not
ii that great. They leave it very.open to interpretation.and Jthink that's intentional. There
12 are some counties that will be able to cite, you know, provide engineering for projects`
r3 that they know they are going to do next. That,'s not the case,_.in our county obviously..
14 So, we have to, ,provide as much information as~we can given the constraints that we
is have, those~~being ,primarily the funding to do an in-.depth strategic plan that would.
16 provide very specific cost estimates and engineering .detail..
17
is Council Member Maguire: So, there's not really an option for a more general
19 approach. .
20 ..
21 Ms. Wilford: I think the Measure B approach, the initial approach; that. looked: at
22 here's all the projects that. need to be done, here are all. the revenue sources, was much
23 more closely related to the Santa Clara .o"r.C.ontra Costa options than. it was looking, at
24 the whole funding picture and then all th'e projects that, were being considered at that;
2s time.
26 ""
27 Council Member IVlaguire: Obviously, I cant speak,. for our_ neighbors to. the south in
2s Marin County;- but as the representative on thee' Sonoma/Marin Area Rail Transit
29 Committee; there does appear to be significant commitment ins .Marin Co;un~ty to move
3o forward on atwo-county basis to develop an .inter=county frail system so be; that as it
31 may, whether we end with support for ,Measure B~, you. know, sub"stantially as it. exists,
32 or with clean-up amendments as Suzanne suggests;, or whatever we did:, I think we
33 need to go ahead and proceed on the assumption That. there are good folks there
34 working to complete the necessary transportation improvements;, in that county as well.
3s and they are happy to work with us and I don't think we should let that. concern hold. us
36 back. :. .
37
3s Council Member Hamilton: I think it should have numbers attached to it. I think that's
39 really important and from what David was talking: about, if. there's extra funds or the
4o slush fund, I think it ..should be-specified where it is going to go and I'd like it say, local
41 streets and roads, because that's the really big crying. shame after we get all of these
42 big things done that. is going on in the .County are the local streets and roads that we
43 don't have the money to -fix and if there was any extra money it should go to that. Then
44 it would just pe a battle over which local streets and roads and what community .got
4s those, but I'm -sure there would be a fair way, but I think that should be included in it and,
Vol. 33, Page 378 August 23, 1999
1 fore Rainier or alternate; I. think it would be fairto say Petaluma Interchange and Cross-
2 town Conneefor and leave. it.at that.
3 _
4 Council Member Healy: Actually, Ms. Hamilton. pretty much said what: I was going to
s say with. respect'to `th'e points that Council Member,Keller had.'raised.. previously which is
6 again not letting CalTrans off the hook and I',m; sure. if we update the numbers and (here
~ are higher assumptions now for what, CalTrans can be.expected to fund and don't forget
a Senator Burton .has everal bond: measures in the hopper that,, if those.,pass, those: will:
9 help too down the road and where ,the extra funding would go, and I'm sure there would
ro be a list of transportation projects, 'and,. I would agree with Council Member Hamilton
11 that. I think my first priority would. be a funding source for fixing local streets to `be
12 distributed back to the local cities on, a .per capita basis or whatever is fair.
13
14 Councif. Member Torliatt; Tfe :ofher, I think,: failure was the fact that there wasn't
is prioritizing as far as the projects go and I .don't know 'if it's our job as a council to
16 prioritize the projects~,that.are on this Measure B, but I think,it really needsto be done at.
17 the Sonoma County' Transportation Authority (SETA) and -especially when you get' fh'e
1g figures in so.you can figure out low much if'is going to cost, how much re~enue.you are
19 going to have coming in and which projects are going 'to getdone 'and what the
20 schedule is so: that everybody .:knows from the get ;go what 'is going 'to happen because
21 that is what~the public wants to see is.results. So I would like to push that..#orward as
22 well.
23
24 Council Member Keller:- Suzanne, do' you know what',list of Marin County cities. have
2s been targeting; approval .and how'th'at"is going?
26
~,
27 Ms. Wilford: My understanding is that ..Marin County is revisiting their lisf; primarily
2s because of the open space portion' does not qualify so they are ,re-looking :at putting
29 together their list and. :in talking with their staff, I know, they have been working with the
3o different cities: They°went -around to' each Gity Councif and discussed their •Measure A
31 and what each .Council were the pitfal s and strong points of that measure and 'L am `not
32 exactly sure where they are at this juncture on putting. something together, but .they are
33 kind of starting from'serafch given that they have $55 million dollarsthat doesn't qualify
34 from their previous measure.
35 .,
36 Council Member Keller: For our' discussion,,. if we can come to ome kind of
37 conclusion, the one that I. propose~~we~ start otf with: would be to agree to the ;Measure B
3s .list less the two; areas that 'CalTrans has already put their feet in with the 'intention that
39 that be funded by CalTrans funds,, such as state funds;, instead of local funds. and that
4o SCTA and_ the .cities- be requested to come: up w',itfi a back=up list or back-up priorities
41 for funding for funds in excess of those expended on these projects.
42
43 Council. Member Hamilton: 1Nhat two projects are-you speaking of?
44
4s Council :Member Keller;' Pefaluma Riper Bridge south to the county dine and
46 Steele/Wlford, including the interchanges.
August 23, 1999 Vol: 33:, Page 379
1
2 Council Member `Torliaff: SteeleNUilford is funded as Suzanne said and the bridge
3 has been funded through the E1R process.
4
s Council IVlember Hamilton: But the projecf hasn't been funded.
6
~ Council Member Torliatt: Right. If they are going to go to that step of funding an EIR,
s why would you --?
9
to Council Member Healy: It seems to me before us tonight is to reaffirm our commitment
11 to Measure B and once you start changing things, then it's like being a little bit pregnant.
la and you either change things or you don't and my sense is that Measure B is an
13 excellent starting. point and. if .needs to be updated and we need to look at some issues:
14 so I am not prepared to pass a resolution that can be taken to Senator Burton saying
is we want Measure B and that's that.
16
17 Mayon Thompson: I thought we would go to option 2 as Suzanne offered where it
la would come back to us and we would review it quickly,, clean up --
19
20 Council 'Member Torliatt: Maybe I don't know'whece this is going,. but I thought this
21 resolution was going .:back, to the Sonoma County Transportation .Authority; in order for
22 the Transportation Authority to fake all of the Council's ideas and recommendations into
23 account and these are. a couple of the recommendations that we would like them. look
24 at and change some of the language.
2s _
26 Mayor Thompson:. is that what~would be satisfactory?
2~
2s Ms. Wilford: That's correct.
29
3o Council Member Hamilton:. In speaking about the priority, I think it is really important.
31 for the SCTA to prioritize, like you said, Pam, because without that it will b;e a political
32 battle with Santa. Rosa having three supervisors and -- Santa Rosa has four County
33 supervisors?
34
3s Council Member Torliatt: I think Santa Rosa has four of them.
36
37 Council .Member Hamilton: That's right. But I think it is really important- to have it
3s prioritized and. I think that what David was saying about the two projects that CalTrans
39 already have their feet in, That could go at the lowest priority to see if they would -come
4o through wifh their money -things could be prioritized in that order.
41 .
4z Council Member Maguire: Yes,. I support that -David's suggestion for proceeding. I
43 think that`s the orderly .way to do it and the .most coordinated amongst the rest of the
44 Council.
4s
46 Mayor Thompson: Do you have a consensus on that? Okay
Vol. 33, Page 380
August 23, 1999
2 Council Member Torliatty I think it's basically a.recommendation to SCTA.
3
4 Ms. Wilford: At this juncture, `it appears we will not be able to ge.t the tamendmenf in
s SCA3 that we had sought initially. It would appear-that what the SCTA is seeking: right
6 now is a sense: from, all the Councils whether .or not Measure B is still the accepaable
7 document. If there. are amendments to Measure ;B, not additions .but. maybe
a amendments to, that is something we wou"fd take: back to the SETA and, in fact, the
9 SCTA may have to develop an expenditure plan that is essentially NJeasure. B-:a'mended
ro or tailored, and bring that back to each. Council :early next year. That's the direction it
i i looks like we are going to b.e going in.
12
13 Council Member Keller; Two things, o.ne is when.:it comes back to SCTA if we could
14: make. sure we have a projected budget., what that flow looks like over the twenty (20,)-
16 year period, and hen the other .question would be for Council Member Healy=-what
17 would you want to see. done rather than what we are proposing?
is _
er Healy: The: main point 'is the one I raised earlier because, L am `very
20 Concerned ehab Marin .County is not; going to pass, any time soon,.. any funding for rail.
21 and I realize that the people who are serving on the Smart Gommiftee are committed,
22 but you know; as happened up here in ,Sonoma County last year, they put together all.
23 the players, they carne up with the package #haf represented the political consensus on
24 what cou
Id be sold, it included a big, open=space component; and: it lost by a wide:
2s mar in.
26 andgail i Now they have to go back to the. voters without the: open-space ,component,
s very. controversial in Marin. I am not optimistic that it is going to pass there
27 and I want to make sure #hat whatever passes here contains actuate transit options. for
2s people in the South County who go south over the county line.
29
3o Council Member Torliatt: UVhy don't we add that input into SCTA so they can look. at it
3i and discussthaf as an option?
32
33 Council MernberrKeller: So: a contingency amendment, ~if ~/larin County does pass or
34 doesn't pass with rail connecting component then --
35
36 Mayor Thompson:: Good. Thank you; Suzanne.
37
3s NO ACTION'TAKEN.
39
4o PUBLIC HEARINGS
4,1 .
42 1. Continued from.. 08/16/99 -Ridge: View Heights subdivision, aNine- (9)-L,ot
43 Subdivision with a remainder lof on Sunnyslope Road (Bi`ali~k)
44 A.. Resolution Approving a Mitigated Negative De.clacation (169)
45 B. Resolution approving a Tentative Subdivision Map (170).
46 C. ,Resolution approving a Public lJrban Development Standards (171')
August 23, i 999 Vol. 33, Page. 381
1 ~~
2 .Council Member Healy: Mr: Mayor; if l can, I was absent at the last meeting, but
3 have reviewed the videotape of~the meeting so I will participate on this item.
4
s Council Member `fader-Thompson: .After listening to Vin, can the Council talk first
6 before the public just'because some. of us'went up and looked at the property? It would_
~ just help.
9 Interim Director of Planning Vin Smith: Mr. Nlayo`r, the Council did consider this Nine
io (9)-lot subdivision last Monday:; The primary reason for continuing it to this evening was.
i i for the Council Members toy fake the :opportunity to walk the .property again to determine
r2 whether public access could be` extended within. th`e project boundary from Sunnyslope.
:.
13 Road to Sunny Hill, Drive. through the ,existing ~~Beatty .residence. Some of the decisions
14 that the Council (believe-made were that, construction hours were going to be from 8
is a.m. to 6 p:m. 'M'onday `through Friday, wifh' no construction on Saturday, Sunday or
16 holidays. That the stem. hown on Lo# Nine (9) on the proposed road would be
i~ dedicated as part. of the public right. of way allowing Mr. Lake, the adjacent property
is owner,, to gain access.
19
io Council Member Keller: Excuse me, Vin,could you put the map up, please. Thank
21 you. ~ "
22
23 Mr. Smith:. I'II point: to the: section.that I am discussing. As proposed on the map, there
24 is a small strip of .land that wou_Id qe' part of Lot'Nine (9) and. staff's .recommendation s~
2s that it be dedicated as part of'~fhe public right-of-way, that the right-of-way would go
26 from Mr. Lake's property .line across the street to the. adjacent parcel for proposed Lot.
27 One (1). Mr. Lake would then be :able to get an encroachment permit at a time in the
2s future to .gain access across- from what is being called Rosewood Court, and, as a
29 condition of that encroachment permit, .he'd be required to~ close the driveway on
3o Sunnyslope Road which is an intended desire as part of the Sannyslope EPR and. Public
31 Utilities Development (PUD).
32
33 As I stated at the beginning, the .primary reason for continuance was for the Councij to
34 take the opportunity to walk-the property and then make a decision whether the access
3s should be kept within the project. bourdary extended/not extended over as an
36 alternative and extended `to th'e north, if you will, which is the Maslin property. I'll show
37 you that. on: the larger scale. To extend the access way up across the Beatty property
3s to .Sunny Hill Drive as an -alternative, and' the staff's :recommendation, was to extend an
39 easement that wo.uld~ terminate somewhere along this property line which is the
40 .adjacent Maslin piece which could then be picked up across the Muslin piece and
41 connected with an existing "paved driveway' that goes. from Sunnyslope Road up to
42 Sunny Hill Drive where the Maslin's private drive that's extended from Sunny Hill'. Drive.
43 or a third alternative could' be to actually dedicate. both as easements. Are there any
44 questions?
4s
46
Vol. 33, Page 382
August 23, 19.99
1 Mayor Thompson: Are there any question for M.r.. Smith? Janice, do you want to falk
2 now? No, I mean, there's no .questions and .you wanted to talk before there"s public--
3 because I'm going. to -ask for public comment next.
4 ..
s .Council Member Maguire: Mr: Mayor; if ~~she's not,, I've. got a question. Vin, .on he top
6 end' of the property at the; top of the `.hill. where there's that notch along, the lower
~ property iine, I guess that would be the'western edge,'w`hen I went up there and looked;
s my understanding was that that little piece is approximately -- that ..little lag that''s
9 hanging down: as the paved area currently.-r
to ~ -
11 Mr. Smith; The two parcels that. are under" consideration fox°;tfe proposed subdivision
12 are these: two.., Sunny Hilf Drive terminates right ,here: This little lag right.. there 'i's part
~_ -..
r3 of the Marlin property, which is all of number-one:
14 -.
is Council Member Maguire:: That's not the piece I'm referring to:_, It's the other one:.
16 ~ ~ ..
1~ Mr. Smith: Are you looking. at this right, here?~
18
19 Council Member Maguire:. It was clearer on the other.one: If you'll put the other one
20 back. on and blow it up a little. That's :great. So, that aittle notch that 'hangs down on
21 the Beatty property, that'is the paved parking area eurre'n"tly; correct?
22
2,3 Mr. Smith: I believe, so.
24 ~ r
2s Council Member Maguire: Okay, if: you go just to the~;rght of that where the property
26 gets narrower between the ;guesthouse -- yes:, right there -- that is.approxirnately where
27 there is the woodpile stacked up now.
28
29 Mr. Smith: I beleve_so;. yes.:
30
31 Council' IVI'ember IVlaguire: Okay, thank you.
32
33 Council Member Cader-Thompson: I'II just make a couple of comments: After I went
3a up there. the other day;you know,, I wo__uld really like to see an, access go over the hill;
3s but my problerns with it are tha# the drive; if it's going by the Maslin's house; you know,,
36 to the left, if yo.u are ,facing .going up the ;hill, when you're corning .down that 1ittfe d`rive,,
37 there's not really a pathway and it was .maKirig it sound as °though this would be a great
38 place for kids to. go to walk to school. And I really don't think, it is the safest place for
39 kids to walk. to school, going, down' that little ar,.ea,, and then' as you go down the road.. to;
4o what's, the, name of''the school -- McNear School, there aren't sidewalks on both sides of
41 the road in certain portions: or sidewalks and so, .you know., I` ~iisualize kids,,: kindergarten
42 through six. th grade; waikng down this area without any sidewalks. and there's cars
43 parked on both sides: .Maybe if cars weren't parked ,on both sides, it may be a different
44 story, so, you know those are my concerns that it d'oesn't seem like the best pathway to
4s encourage kids to go. from Sunnyslo;pe Road over and I: didn't really see where a path
46 could actually be offi the .asphalt. ~ That's the begimring of my comments.
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 383
1
2 Council 'Member Maguire: I'If address that issue. I went up the day after we had our
3 lasf meeting' -.and- I found that it ~is perfe_ctly reasonable i.n my estimation to have. a
4 pathway. You did site, Mr. Mayor, there is a Little bit of a steep slope just below the
s guesthouse. Certainly, that would, make it a little. difficult for a bicycle path, but a short
6 flight of stairs, ten or twelve stairs, would accommodate that as far as a pedestrian path.
~ goes.
s .
9 There is ample room between the edge of the property and the guesthouse to put in a
io path. You would'. have to move the woodpile, but there's room to put in a path and
i i include a fence to screen between that path. and the °guesthouse. The most awkward
12 portion of this would be that the natural portal of Suring Hill Drive would be going down
13 the existing driveway of Mr. Beatty's property: Certainly, that's where a homeowner
14 might have some issues with that.
is
16 It appears to me there's sufficient room that if a trail, did go :through there hugging the
1~ western edge of the property line, you'd: have that choice of, possibly, if Mr. Beatty was.
is so inclined and Mr: Maslin was willing to cooperate with him, to run that path out to the
i9 last section of .the, I guess it's the private road that comes off of Sunny Hill that feed`s
20 the five houses or comes right ,out. the driveway. If you came out the driveway, it
21 appears physically possible that Mr. Beatty could carve away a piece of his Juniper
22 shrubbery and widen- his driveway a little bit and still create plenty of room for both. his
23 car and a path next to -that.
24
2s Now, there was some discussion with some neighbors out there, Mr: Maslin was out
26 there and a coup e of others; and we had a `good lively discussion about property rights
2~ and development and responsibilities, and it is, I'm of the opinion, that if a person is
2s going to subdivide a piece of property and create a new neighborhood, that it is entirely
29 reasonable to ask forthere to be some'contribution back to the community. In a case
30
31 like this, you know; when you recently had the public adopt an urban growth boundary
32 with an .almost eighty percent (80%} majority,.. it's ;because people are really feeling th:e
33 strains of automobile traffic and really, the solution. to that is to create as many
34 opportunities for .bicycle and pedestrian alternatives that we can, and this one
3s represents a good one.
36
37 Sunny Hill Drive has a great line of sight. Yes, it is a sloped .hill, but it is a wide street,
3s quite a., wide st"rect. I'm comfortable in suggesting that if we are going to approve this
39 Nine (9)=lot` subdivision, we should require a contribution back to the community thaf
4o would serve the community in this manner, and I would recommend that we make that
41 a condition.
42
43 Mayor Thompson: 1Nithout any more immediate Council comment, I will. call on the
44 public. I've got about three or four cards here. Mr. R. James Simons.
4s
46
Vol. 33, Page, 384 ~ Augus# 23; 1.999
~ PUBLIC COIVIMEIVT
2
3 R: James .Symons, 132 Sunny Hill Drive: ,I am Jim :Symons, good evening, Council
4 Members and. Honorable. Mayor and Honorable Vice=Mayor: I have a handout fo,r you
s that has some pictures ,referring specifically to :the driveway that you just talked about
6 and. would like: to go through that from tlie~ safety .aspect as ~ do disagree with Council
~ Member Maguire that it s_ a safe alternative. If you could. turn to Exhibit 1, vuh'ch is the
s first picture. 1Ne`II wait a minute.
9
io Ln the meantime, I'll give a little: bit. of .background. I am a fourth generation Petaluman.
ii 1 have currently -- actually;grew~up outside of the City, moved into
--
12 the, City a number of. years ;ago and am currently residing at `t32 Sunny Hill Drive. 132
13 Sunny Hill 'Drive 'is the; ;last house that'.. is, being serviced by the five (5.)' -house
14 driveways.
is
16 What I would ai,ke to cover this evenings, first, the safety issues dealing with connecting
i~ in any way with Srunny Hill Drive, ;and then. I also would like 'ko take a minute or tw.o to
is discuss ome of the ill' feasibility,. I believe; of trying to connect in later on through the
9 Ross property that has not yet ;been developed, and' in essence using what would be
'ZO our private driveway `that: if' there was. any further development rather than. using 'the
2 current five (5)-.way driveway, we would ;go ~b:ack to the .original private drive that comes
22 from Sunnyslope Road.
23
24 Does everyone. now have a copy of the handout? If you could turn to Exhibit: One (t).
Zs The first proposal, I'll cal_I it the f_i_`rst proposal., a_nd that first.. proposal deals with going
26 from the Beatty property to the .back of. the Maslin property and some time in the future
27 ..connecting up to the'. five (5)-house drive..: This picture shows the driveway with fwo (2)
2s cars coming up and there's no way the two ,(2) ears can go on this driveway at the same
29 time. .Instead, if two. (2) cars meet, one (1) cf the ears, the car going uphill, must back,
3o all the way downhill in order to let the other cargo. by and then drive up. If' you added
31 pedestrians or b.icycl.ists in this situation, itwould be., I .believe,. seriously dangerous:,
32
33 The second, turn. to Exhibit Two (2), ;the second exhibit is the top: of the drive. I't's
°34, actually the :end of our property going onto that~drive, and it shows again that even, just:
3s one car does not leave room for bicyclists and pedestrians:
36
3~ Turning; to Exhibit: Three (3), Exhibit Three (3) is halfway down the drive and, half_.way
...
38 down the drive again shows that there is, just not the room. I think it would ;be very, very
39dangerous in 'the situation.. Now, the alternative nurnb.e:r tw.o (2,) was. to go ahead: and
ao go through the .Beatty property without touching.the Maslin property, except for°the very
41 bottom edge of the -drive which is owned by Mr. Marlin, but there are four (4) other
42 properties that access their.homes by that property.
43
• _
ivewa s ust off the Sunn, Hill Dny
44 Exhibit Four (4) is the five (5) homes dr Oj gg y e;,just before:
4s the path entry under Proposal `Number Two 2~ . The- su estion is that 'it would be a
46 safe method to .come onto that property right at that point and' I believe the picture.
August 23, 1999
Vol. 33, Page 385
1 shows that it is stilt, very~narrew at that point; -let alone someone coming out, of the trees
2 walking onto the road iri front.of•someone.usin.g that drive.
3 ,. -
4
s
6
s
9
to
11
12
13
14
15.
16
17
is
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
2s
29
30
31
32
33
3,4
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
Finally,. or not finally, Exhibit Five (5) covers the exact entrance. It is my understanding
to Mr. Maguire's p"roposal, 'tlaf would come right at that point onto that property line and
I just think this is a very dangerous combination. of putting the cars that service that..
property against pedest_r.ians that are walking along the road there.
Finally,, Exhibit Six (6) ~s:hews down to the 'bottom of the hill dealing with Sunny Hill Drive
and as was pointed, out, there is no sidewalks on this road, and true, it may be a wide
road, but when you take cars parked; on either .side and add a couple of cars driving up
or down the. road,. it's a very dangerous. situation. So my opinion is that there is not a
safe alternative to putting a pathway through to
Sunny Hill prive nor is. Sunny Hill Drive a safe place to put our children or other walkers
in that area.. I would Like to take :one second to talk about. other proposals because I
heard, suppose. we do it another way which is to turn around and ge up and maybe go
back down to Sunnyslope Road and not cross over .and the difficulty there is, once
again, what are you accomplishing by doing. that. unless you are going over the Sunny
Hill Drive area,. You're really not accomplishing fiery much. So, my suggestion or
recommendation would be that you drop the proposal for a bicycle or path through
anywhere in this particular area and .move on with other things. Thank you. If'you have
any questions, I can answer them now.
Mayor Thompson: Any questions for Mr. Symons? Thank you, sir. Harold Bard:
Harold Bard, 126 Sunny Hill Drive:. 'My Warne is Harold Bard. I live at 126_ Sunny
Hill .Drive., ." I;' have been in that. resitlence for twenty-three (23) years and all
during that`aime~l have never, until here today, seen a bicyclist on the hill in front
of my house.~when 'Ms.. Torliatt came to look at the situation first hand. The
children there,.do not ride bicycles because the street is so steep. It is just not
realistic.
Another tling:;that I -am`wery concerned about is that this .matter: we did. ,not
receive notice' ~of this. matter ih a timely fashion. l bumped into Marilyn Maslin
..,
fast Monday antl she told -us that„'this was on the agenda. If this. bicycle and
footpath is going. to go ~on"the easement in front of my house, I believe we have
the "right. to Piave the'ypro'per notice',and we did not receive notice. I just want to
make that known to you. ~ People come and tell you they are not notified and
know;, for example.:, that is very `true: The easement in front of my house, which
is off gf"Sunny Hill Drive, is so,steep~ thaf bikes are not used. When the kids up
there want to ride a bicycle, for exarnpje my son,. f have to put his bicycle in a car
and drive it down to the foot of the. hill .there and put it out so he could ride his
bicycle around ~M'cNear Sclool.~ Bicycles do not go up there, that's my point.
vol. 33, Page 386 August°23,_.1.999
i Mr.. Symons has.. pointed .out several different. dangerous situations and 1 probably am
2 going to .reiterate most o.f it. There's `very ,poor visibility u,p there.. You cannot; see the
3 paved roadway when you back. out of your garage: The pedestrians are very much at
4 risk. There. are nosidewalks up these. The risibility is very poor,; ,When driving dow,n_
s the easement towards Sunny Hill. Drive, whoever is on: foot has to;_ get off the. ,paved.
6 portion of the street of `the easement so that a car can :pass..
~ _
s When. automobiles do wander up there, they have a tendency to find out, well, it's a
9 private. drive .and they shouldn't be here.: Numerous times peopJe,,will get stranded up
io there; they are run off the road. Back around, I've had to .go out and :back some. cars
i i around to help people get out: of there and even when that.. does not happen, people;
12 feel a liftle: flustered and, they turn around and fhey1eave faster than they should. `This
13 is a dangerous situation because they don't see. people on foot. 'The.te are. no
..
14 sidewalks on the ~easemenf,'as Mr. Symons pointed out,
rs
16 I was also going; to point out; as Mr. Symons did, there's no sidewalks on Sunny Hill:
i~ Drive down near the; McNear :School: If this project were approved, 'I believe 'the: City
is has some responsibility to provide a afe transport at~the botfom of the hill, jusf like they
i9 do further up fhe street. At the time fhe Sunnyslope~ Assessment: District action took
20 place., the City staff reviewed the who a area ;and they did not recommend sidewalks to
2i be added 'into that area: It is also noted that. there has,been past litigation, and there's
22 a Superior Court judgment thaf only the five (5) residences on the easerne.'nf were'fo
z3 use the easement so that's something before ,you take any action you'd have to review.
24 What I'm really saying is that I'm hoping that the. City Council will not make. the safety
zs problem. anyworse by adding additional foot and bike traffic:: Thank you.
26
27 Council Member Keller; Mr..Bacd, I .have ,a question for you.. Thanks very much and:
28 appreciated the tour with you this afternoon ;and your assistance,.;in:,gefting me, unstuck
29 in my car.:. Just like, Sue Symons said; people get stuck there all the. time. I'm. looking
3o at, and I'm assurriing, this is the ,judgment. that you are referrrng to, 1979.,, Masln v..
31 Rippey.
32
33 Mr. Bard: Yes.
34 ~ .
3s Council Member Keller.,: 'O'kay.: I'm trying to understand this.' ..It ;says. plaintiffs: and.
36 cross-defendants, in this case that means. Maslins,, are enjoined from maintaining a
37 gate or any other barrie"r or impediment fa .cross saideasement and unfo_rtunatel,y, I
3s don't ,hake the map that goes with this to.: see what .that oasement that was under
39 dispute. is. Plaintiffs and cross-;defendants are enjoined from maintaining ~a gate or any
40 other barrier or impediment to cross said easement 'for so Igng as: the, following
~41 described conditions exist.. And it has ,bee:ns noted here. by somebody ~on Council, .or
42 somewhere for o,ur .reading pleasure; said.~ease"'ment .is,, this is one of .the con',ditions,.
43 said easement. is limited to the use by persons who. are-:residents of the tlwell,ing located
44 on Lot 1 as numbered and. designated as blahs b1ah; bla.h, and their ~guesfs. Such use
4s shall be made in a safe .manner .with due respect to the- rights of all uses of the
46 easement. I don't see 'in here and reading. on to the other conditions about where a
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33; Page 387
1 lock-hinged ,gate could be placed. It doesn't say in my reading of it, and granted. it was
2 a quick reading of it as I'.m sifting here,. it doesn't. say that nobody else can use that
3 roadway. It just says that plaintiffs and cross-defendants are enjoined from maintaining
4 agate for ``so long as the easement is only used by persons who are residents of th'af
s dwelling."
6
~ Nlr. Bard: 1Nell, being anon-lawyer..,, we h`ad a lawyer represent the four (4:)
s homeowners. At the time: the .person who lived .in the residence where the Symons now
9 reside were -running a~commercial business. They -had twenty-two (22) cars a day plus
to trucks plus foot traffic. 1Ne ask- ed them fo stop. 'We asked the County zoning to take
11 care of it and they cried Prop Thirteen (13) and it was left up to us to do something `
12 about the problem. 1N"e, therefore, hired a lawyer. _
13
14 The gate that I think you are talking about 'is now on the left of the property in front of
is where. your car was today. That gate was put there to slow down traffic.. Before that,
16 the property for years had .been sealed offi right at the Symons property line. When we
1~ moved there, that's the way it was. The nex# owner opened that up and put a 'S
is commercial business in there and that's why it resulted in litigation. We didn't do that
19 Willy-Hilly, we tried to talk to the people and tried to make sense and do it thaf way.
20
21 Council Member Keller:. Okay, so essentially the ~Maslins, where that gate ~is now,
22 where my truck was; that --
23
24 Mr. Bard: No, .the Maslins are -- as you go up, they are on the left; we're on the right
2s before the first .gate.. Then you go in where you parked today and that's the second
26 gate that 1 was talking, about.
27
2g Council Member.,FCelle_r.,: Right, that's the Symons. I know that. I'm just trying to sort
29 out the language here, but I'If I,et it pass at the moment.
30
31 Mayor Thompson: Mr. Symons, you have to come up to the microphone, please.
32
33 Mr. Symons: Maybe I can, help clarify it. If you look to page 2 and specifically 2A, it
34 says the easement is limited to the use by .persons who are..residents of the dwelli:rig, .
3s which is located at Lot One. (1 ). ...Lot One (1) is the lot that I own, Sue and I own, as
36 numbered on the .designated .map,. so forth :and so on. So, fhe`,limitation 'is, at that ;line
37 right there, is that you only pass there to get to Lot 1 ,and nothing else as, such. Any
3g other questions?
39.
4o Mayor Thompson:. Thank.you, Mr. Bard. .Dick Lieb. f am leaving off the Santa Claus
41 portion that you put o.n this letter.
42 "
43 Dick Lieb, One Highland Road: In the vicinity of.; I'll speak for myself and. then I'll speak
44 for Santa Claus. I moved 'up there thirty-five (35) or th"irty-seven (37) years up in that, .
4s area and raised two boys in the neighborhood. Went. to"McNear School and all that and
46 that is not a safe situation: I can attest to that. First of all, we're seeing it at a beautiful
Vol. 33, Page-388 .August 23, 1999
i time of year. 1Nhen that.. driveway .gets frost on it, qou can fall on your .butt because- I did
2 it years ago.
4 I used to ;be ;Santa Claus little. Michael Bard when he-was abpua this. high at his.fouse i.n
s the- evenings and, of course, it's winter, and I'll. tell you, if you get some. fro t on that.
6 driveway and kind, of a winter fog,. it is: not; safe.. Even late in `the afternoon because it's
~ on the shady side of the hill and I think you have to look at these. situations seasonally
a around town. .It's steep, as those who went up: there know. It's narrow: I've driven up
9 there and I know, as do the .Maslins and Bards and° other :families, and the; other :thing. is
io there are ;not that many sidewalks af` the bottom of the hill. There are some rises, arid..
ii falls as you come up that hill -- you. can`t see over a hump and I think it is not~.a safe
i2 place to do this. Maybe we would never .plan today private driveways this wide., You
r3 would not allow it, but I think there's ,a situation there and, I'd hate. to see: you exacerbate
i4 the situafion with carving things off' because I don't"chink it overcomes the problem that's:
is there .and. that site Line of backing. in and out,, the.- passing of cars, and there- might be
i6 young kids up there: in the future and I'm still doing some Santa Clausing and I like it
i~ safe in the winter.. That's all I have to say:
is _
i9 Mayor Thompson: Bonnie.,Bard,
20 .
21 Bonnie Bar,.d, 1:26 Sunny Hill Drive: I live at 1.26 Sunny.Hill and that was my son who
22 Dick-.was ,Santa Claus. to f.or all those years until my son got oad enough that he couldn't
23 quite figure `it out and he said thaf wasn't really Santa Claus; that was either Dick Lieb 'or
24 Bob Hope.. He: couldn't decide who was in his living ,room.,
2s
26 I just want to back- up, my neighbors that it is an unsafe condition to put a ,lot of
2~ pedestrians on,; especially if you -are going to encourage elementary school kids
28
29 to use` that as an. access down Sunny Hill Drive to McNear School. 1 want, to thank. you
3o all. for having' trekked up the hill to 'visit. us sand to listen to us: If we sounded. a; bit'.like;
3i we were haranguing; we apologize, but we really care: about if..
32
33 I want. to talk to you about', another issue in 'terms of philosophy. If you put -folks down
34 our, .or even: pedestrian"s, 'if bicycles are; off the table, and you have: pedestrians, going
3s down burr easement, down our narrow hillside there,, it's ,'going, .to be a. concern -to us for
36 our safety and the safety we b.ack;:into.. And this is `for our neighbor to have the right to
. _
37 have nine (9) lofs. Now, if he's going, to have..nine (9) lots, God forbid -- if my neighbor
3s is going to have- the right to do a development with nine (9); 'houses and:' sell nine (9)
39 lots, I have no problem with `that, but he': doesn't have~topass his problems onto me'to
4o solve. at the aat=ne time. I've got enough problems, of my own, thank you very much.
4.1have no problems with. hire building those nine (9), houses, but:`if you`re going to require
42 him to have public,access of any sort, be it pedestrian„`bicycle; helicopter,, whatever you
43 decide, it shoultl, be on his property and it sh;oufd be _his problem to solve: 'If shou,ldn't
44 6e passed over, to me and my;other`fi,ne neighbors.. Thank you.
45
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33; Rage.389
1 Patricia Tuttle Brown, 5`13 .Petaluma Boulevard South: My name is Patricia Tuttle
2 Brown and I wanted to speak to this, 'issue. I think it is really great that the neighbors
3 are here. and I do think it;was. unfortunate that they weren't noticed. What I wantto say
4 is I think at the time this part, of the community was annexed, what I would like to say to
s the Co_ uncil is, I feel that it became a neighborhood. .Neighborhoods, in my view, in our
6 community, need .to. be connected and I don't know how many people have walked in
~ North Berkeley and parts of Albany, but
a
9 there are wonderful, foot paths between very; very, very nice neighborhoods where you
to can walk. from neighborhood. to neighborhood easily and they are very steep, a lot of
11 there, and this is -part of what I envision for this place. What I would like to say is this is
12 my view of the appropriate connection.: I see it as a footpath at the steepest spot. I
13 don't see taking a :ten (1.0)-foot wide~iswafh out of the owner's driveway. I think it needs
14 to be a footpath, at' that place. ~ ;
is ,
16 I think, 'in talking with some of the neighbors, to one of the neighbors today, I think that
1~ safety is really, important. I think -- one of the neighbors was saying I'm worried about
1g the kids, you know.. Ifiwe build a path there, it'needs to have visibility, but we don't want
..,
whole bunch more trees. ;Apparently, they have; actually cut. some trees in that
20 neiohborhood for safety reasons. '"1 think wh'at' we have to do is we have to be b'ig
9
21 enough'. to th-ink fifty (5.0) or one hurrtlred (100) hundred years from now when as one of
22 the Council Members said to ime today, you know, they'll ;probably be a lot of houses up
23 there then no matter wh`af kind ~of limits we think we're building in and if we don't;
24 preserve foot access in what's going to~be a neighborhood, we aren't really doing our
2s job as planners. ~ "
26 .
27 I agree with the neighbors. The ,person developing the; property should ,be the one
2g responsible .here and I said that last.. week.. It.~seems. unfair to burden the neighboring.
2a parcels -and their access road and I feel having; walked up. there that there is room on
_._
3o this parcea, And the last thing I want_~.to say is`that I don't `feel: it's a matter of wanting to
31 invade people's privacy. People tf1'at lire up~th'ere: -- it's a beautiful area. I feel. it's a.
32 matter of connecting. neighborhoods.. And L just want to make one last comment about
33 the name Ridge View. You see the. Warne
34
3s Ritlge View -- there's nine houses that are going to be built on a cul-de-sac and it"`s.
36 called, Ridge View and I think they`.deserve more than being able to just look at the ridge
,,
37 -- viewing the ridge -- 1'd, like to see them walk over the ridge and visit their neighbors
sg because to me, that's what~a community"is about and 'that's what keeps a community
39 safe is that kind of intermeshing of our neighborhoods.. So thank you for you time.
40
41 Mayor Thompson: Anyone else like to speak to this issue? Mr. Buckley.
42
43 Steve Buckley; 50.1 East Washington. Street: Steve Buckley, .501 East Washington
44 Street. I'm representing Dr, Beatty. Unfortunately; I was .unable to contact him this:
4s week. I think.l pointed o.ut last Monday that he's back East on a family matter and 1 was
46 kind of hoping to talk to :him. Based on the conversations tonight, I would like to assure .
Vol. 33, Page 390
August 23; 1999
i Mrs. Bard that 'Dr: Beatty was not desirous to push his situation off :onto anyone else.
2 He was obviously not in favor ~of' caw"sing any of his neighbors: any ,problems
3 whatsoever.
4
s Dick Liebe made a good .,point. A coup a of years ago ~I_ d`rove up to p;'ick up Jerry to play
6 golf and_his driveway, as ,you. saw it and I'm sure most:. of you have seen it, issteep and
~ small and F hadn't thought much about that :until f remembered driving up there once
s and my car spinning its wheels and sliding back. down and having.. fo actually turn
9 around and come up in reverse gear where you get; more traction. I don't think: that
io happens eonti'nually during the winter, ,but it does ,happen..
it
12 I would like,. we adjourned the meeting last tirrie _witf the intent of working, o.ut this
13 access at this meeting :and 1've. always been uncomfortable, as I was on Maxwell ;when
14 we gave. 'that pathway, creating an access to somebody eise'`s property without them
is being involved with the acfual decision-making and. in the case of they Maxwe 1, it worked
i6 out fine. The Prieto property providedFwhat was:;;needed and I think it's going to be'just
v fine. ,
ig ~ .`
i9 I'm still against either one ~ of°th~ese accesses here in `this area,. I do not have the
20 authority, okay,. to grant or, say fine, we'll ~go up to Jerry's house,;. I do not have that
21 authority. Mr. Beatty;. in my~opinion, personally has:fo do, that and' if the.majority'of this
22 .Council feels thaf that's going :to be a :condition of approvals of this map., I respectfully
23 request. that you ,postpone the vote uritil° he gets _back to :review it or two, if it's voted on;
24 his option will be to Jet the map die ~J~t's died. once. I was .non-controversial last time.
?s We didn't expect any controversy to be honest~with you. `
26
27 Jerry and 1' never discussed going up through .his ,property. It was, brought to his
2s attention before he left.that;the potential forgoing over the Maslin property was going to
29 be brow "ht 9 ge saidgust hapndle whap P th~nk i personally have been there rnany;,
ao .not dscguss oin throw 1h his: 'ersonaf ~~ro ert : I g ° ith Maslin in mind. We. did
31 many times. I..don't th'nk'it'a logical;, I'rn,so,rry; I .still don't think it's logical.. The one item
32 that we went through at the last meeting hat I'd like to differ with Vin if I could -- -and I've
33 reviewed this. meeting four (4) times, `I'we .reviewed the old Planning Commission
34 meeting that Mike was out -- I wash never hear" a`t the last, meeting or.~ the Planning
3s Commission meeting who was going,to maintain,this strip of landscaping that, is~on that:
36 little strip down at the botfom where the tree`s hang over. 1Ne gave a ...landscape strip
37 th:e.re with the intent of saving those trees I'm very uncomfortable- ifi that is going to
3s become. a maintenance item for the Lake property: I took some pictures lash. meeting
39 :and gav..e: them to. everybody. I'm sure: Dr. Beatty aril I wou_Id ke very uncomf,orta6,le
4o with: `Mr. Lake -being resporisib.e for' maintaining that strip. The obvious solution, of
4i course, was a landscape assessment district; but the City; the last time- we had one sit
42 there, the City doesn't want that.
43
44 I propose giving Lot Nine: (9.)' the right to maintain that. strip: so that the. 'quality of that
4s landscaping, would stay with..the quality of the homes. I respectfully request. that: we
46 allow that to be 'if Mr. Lake eventually puts an access through there to his property
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page'391
i behind his house. I don't have a problem with that if the City feels that's necessary, but
2 I really don't want the maintenance of that land to be held by somebody else. ~'
3
4 Council Member Torliatt: Steve, you're saying that yo.u want Lot 9 to bear the
s responsibility of that? -
6
7 Mr. Buckley: Of maintaining that strip, yes.. That's in ou"r Covenants, Conditions and' -
s Restrictions (CC&R's). Okay.
9 _.
io Council Member Torliatt: I don't have a .problem with that.
ii
i2 Mayor Thompson: I have one quick question though, Steve. When is Mr. Beatty
13 going to be back?
14
is Mr. Buckley: That's a good point because I have not been able to contact him and
i6 Dave,, his son, who :I'm able to reach is back- there now too so I've asked him to have
17 him contact me, but at this point I'm not sure if they've made contact. Dr. Beatty is in a
is Recreation Vehicle (RV). I don't have a hotel room.
19
20 Mayor Thompson: What's the Council's --
21
22 Council Member Cader-Thompson: Mr. Mayor. I would rather wait and -talk to Dr. ,
23 Beatty and see what he has to say.
24
2s Council Member Hamilton: I would too.
26
27 Mayor Thompson.: That's fine... We've got a long agenda here this evening. Do I have
28 a consensus from the Co,uncif that we are going to wait for Jerry to get back and wehll~-
29 .go from there? What I wouldn't really, I think we've: really had a lot of input at this point' `...
3o and at the next go around with this, I'd like to make: it not more than ten (10) or fifteen -
31 (15) minutes. I mean his will be the third time on this item, but I'm willing to wait as
32 well, Steve.,
33 t.
34 Mr: Smith: Mayor, members of the Council, for the record .and the benefit of the public, .
3s we should continue the public hearing to perhaps a date unspecified and then, prior Ito
36 that, set the date. Looking #or guidance from either our City -- --
37
3g Council. Member Hamilton: "Then. we will notice the .,neighbors, Mr. Mayor. "
39
40
41 Mr. Smith: If .,you continue to an unspecified. date; we'll re-notice everyone thaf,spoke if
42 they did not: receive the notice and everyone within the notice list. . " -
43 _
44 Mayor Thompson:. Thank you.
4s
Vol. 33,,Page 392
August 23, 1999
i Council Member-.Maguire: Mr.. Mayor, do you need a motion if so 1'll move: to continue
a ~ to a date uncertain.
'3
4 Mayor Thompson: No; I think it's just done..
s
6 Council: IVlember To"rliatt Thank you for coming tonight. Thank you. Mr. Mayor, if
?..there were. folks in this <audience that were here. on this issue, but didn't speak, you're
s ,more than.. welcome to~ put'your name.,. or give. your name to the ,City Clerk, and your
9 address, and we will. notify you when this is coming back.
to
11 RECESS
12 8:32 p.m.
I3
14 RECONVENED
is 8:45 p.m.
16
17
1g Pl9BLIG HEARING
19
Zo 1 a. Discussion .and Possible _Action Regarding Increase of Cable. Access Fe.e for
21 Petaluma Community Access (PCA) Operations. (Beatty) (172)
22
23 Mayor Thompson: I'd like 'to begin with the Ass"stant City Manager, Gene; Beatty.
24 Please.. Thank you, Mr. Beatty.
Zs
26 Assistant City Manager Gene Beatty; Yes,, M_r: Mayor,; members of the Council;, you
2~ haue two items before you tonight, both relating to public access over the cable system.
2s.. ultem One (1) is a discussion, and .possible. action: regarding the cable access fee, and a
29. pofential increase ';in atat fee to upport .operational fundincg fqr the access .channel...
' 30 °'Ctem Two (2); and however you want to handle thi"s, is: a request for consideration for an
3i interim funding to support: again the operations of Petaluma ~ornmunity Access (PCA).
32 during the time between tonight, basically, and whatever timme it; would be that PCA
33 would actually'be in receipt. of any adjustment to the fee should the Council elect to do
34 that.
35
_36 Basically, in they Franchise Agreement there is a provision that allows the Council. to
3~ establish pan access fee :in. support of the- operations of community access te.feuison.
.3"8. There. are representatives from the Board of Directors from Petaluma Community
39' Access .here tonight to discuss (heir needs with you or answer any questions you ..have
4o regarding, the financial opportunities. and situations that they're in. There was a request
4~1 from .PCA for an increase of the cable access fee from fifity (50) -.cents; a month pe.r
4z subscr.iber to one dollars° and twenty-five cents ($"1.25) a month per subscriber, There.
43 was interest expre~ssetl on the part of some Council .Members- to increase that fee to
44 two dollars ($2.00) per month.
45 '
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 393
i What you have before you, and what was provided in the original packet and then in the.
2 supplemental jpacleet Friday is information from PCA on how those funds would be used
3 should the Council. elect.:to increase. the fee by a variety of amounts. Basically, they are
4 here tonight to discuss that:; This was also noticed as a public hearing on the fee..
s Subsequent to tonight's action,, what would happen. is, if there is an increase in the fee:,
6 the Council, by' re"solution,. can adopt that increase .either a one (1)-year or multi-year
~ increase. At `that- point; the subscribers, as I understand it, would be noticed. There 'is
s a notice requirement from AT&T to their customers a`nd there is an AT&T representative
a here tonight that ~I ,know also wants to speak to you among others.
io
ii I would anticipate that whatever the Council takes. tonight if it does result in an increase
i2 in the- fee. that. the.~fee~ wou d not .go into. effect probably until January. That :fee is
13 collected`by AT&T and'is~ sent directly to PCA for their :operational use. It is collected',
14 on ~a quarterly basis sand _therefore probably PCA would •not realize an increase in their
is revenue until maybe 'mid=April of:n~ext~~year, hence.fhe request fbr some interim funding
i6 to support their=current;level of operations. UVthout that interim funding, it's apparent
i~ that~,RCA would hhave ~to continuerevising their .current level of service probably in a
is downward fashion,: so, howeveryou would like to proceed.
19
20 Council Member Tor iatt: ~ 1Ne received a letter from David Kerr, the Director of
21 Governmental Affairs for AT'&T; and I also spoke with him on the phone and he, afithat
22 time, suggested verbally ands he has included this. in his letter of a voluntary opt-in for
23 the community ,access fee and I find it very interesting that they are willing to do the
24 accounting for~an °opt-in fee, but they are not willing to do Elie accounting which I believe
Zs we were told at the; last time, we were all .here.; they wouldn't do the accounting to
26 exempt eertain~.people if they requested. So, I didn't know if you had any comment on
2~ that, Gene, because`that was one of-the questions I had asked.
zs
a9 flllr. Beatty: I don't .know if someone from PCA would like to speak to that. The only
3o comment that I would have -- originally there was some discussion of the original:
3t access fee being optional. We were told, at that'tirne, that was not an option, that they.
32 didn't have the mechanical ability; you. might say; to do that. There was some .other
33 consumer protection. issues regarding the method in' such a fee would be presented to
34 the subscriber and 'therefore if went from optional to' mandatory: The only concer..n that
3s I would have as your representative to the PCA Board is that PCA really needs to have
36 a finite, dependable ongoing fiundi'ng source and if we were to do something like that
37 and make. it an optional, such as "here you write in your donation," that's all it would..'be
3s is a donation and it would~be extremely difficuJt'to operate an organization on subjective
39 donations that could fluctuate .significantly from month to .month.
40
41 Council Member Torliatt: I didn't, and .maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought it
42 was whether or not someone actually wanted to .have it on their cable. bill, and. if they
43 requested it, that it be removed from their cable .bill then we could remove it from their
44 cable bill, but...AT&T, or at that point in time TC1, didn't want to go through that
4s accounting function to do that.
46 '
Vol. 33, Page 394 August 23, 1.999
i IIIIr. Beatty: There were. other issues besides juste accounting. ;,
2
3 Council IVlember Torl-iaft: Besides tlaf, okay.
4 _ .. ..
s Mayor. Thompson: Any ,other questions -for Mr, Beatty? ..Thank you: f will open the
6 public hearing now: I have got.an inordinate amount of'people who would like;to speak
~ this evening to this item..As a. result of that, l`rn going to~~ask~everyone to try and go `for
g two minutes and. try not:to repeat what anotherspeaker has said. ;,
_ _
io PUBLIC FIEARING ~ -
~ ~ ', ,
12 Judy Reynolds: Mr.:Mayor, m.y name is Judy Reynolds..I live: at 21-.0 Pauaa.Lane and I.
_ ~ .
r3 am very honored to .be the very first to speak i'ri-favor of public, `access television: L
is equate this to sort of ~a camp#ire for the community. There are very few. places ins
is Petaluma where people of, all .ages, from ;all kinds:, of:, different backgrounds, 'can'. gather
i6 together to learn :about what`s happening in their. eornrnunit~y and with public access. that
i~ is exactly what we~can do. 1Ne .can tune in 'to those three channels and 'find' out; what. is
is going on in the community.. Also, as a,person who. has: participated :in the programs at
i9 public access,, I. can pouch for the degree of professionalism on the part of the people
20 who run the programs. They are exceptionally helpful and> it gives -,a ;lo't;,of~ people an
21 opportunify to learn. things: that they might never learn. any. place else. Finally; I would
2z like: to ..lend my support to this,s_ upporf' fore public :access, in regard.rto,the animals of
23 Petal'uma_ because we have a show.. on called Petaluma ~~Pets fo.r -Adoption.., It, is. very
Za important to the sheltered animals 'and provides them with weekly exposure to. people
Zs who might want toy be adopting a dog or a :cat or another-pet. So, that's~~my support. and
26 I hope, you agree.
zz
2s Barbara Parker:: I am very happy to be here this evening. I am the Vice: President: of
29 the. Board and',I wanted to reiterate to you 'the :fact that we are, very ,.grateful thaf you are
3o consider`ing this ':increase... One of the major things we want to remind -you is the, fact-
31 that we cannot continue at $95,oQ:0. Regardless of what,has been said or.is being said
32 by AT&T, there is no: power, no phones, no services, .no training, ''involved in:. a rather
33 spec.ious~ and very lightly delivered, response to ;the. mo-nths of work. we have been doing
34 with you. So, I would like to remind. you. that w.e ne.ed~to have apart=time: engineer. UVe
3s need :better administration. W~e, need' some more people'. to be working- with the
36 community so we can develop. 'joi'nt projects', .joint funding. These: are not three:
37 cameras,. so many pieces. of-gear which can be sitting in ;a elcrset and; d,o ngthing, if~the.re
..
38 are 'no peop'le> to g:e"t .out there and work with ou-r co,mmunity.. So, I' thinwk. you more, or
39 less have taken a decision to. do something; with this resource which you -acquired' by
4o giving a developer an electric space a eerCain kind of right-of-way and in: return got a
41 City park so 'if you want to put a theater on -that: park or you want to put a community
42 center o.r a bandstand., that~.is really up to the people ,of' Petaluma.; ..So l hope you will.
43 move forward. on this and. remembering the kinds of steps ~N.e '.have talked about and
44 our treasures is here again :to answer any specific questions a6out'this bud"get that are
4s outlined that you have already received...and l will- leave it at that because~.l think there- is
46 so many people that want. to talk. .
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page: 395
1
2 Carl Mackie (P. Q. Box 502):; Good. evening,: Mr. Mayor, members of the :City Council
3 and City officials. I recently moved to Retaluma„ However, I have been active in a
4 poetry series in downtown Petaluma for the last two: years.. I .have be:e.n, impressed by
s the professionalism, However,. it seems like. it has taken. a series of miracles for PCA to
6 produce a level of programs for .the community. This is such a very high level with their
~ funding level presently at so .,paltry a scale. I think an .increase in funding would
s drastically improve their service to the community and increase the range of programs
9 that they cou_Id makeavailable quicker and I fully support this measure to increase their
io funding. Thank you.
ii
12 Shelly Trumbo (233 Vallejo Street): My .name is Shelly Trumbo. I have been a.
i3 Petaluma resident I think#or about 20 years and I am part of a band.. In fact, (here are
14 three of the five.'band .members in the audience tonight. and our band at one point was
is videoed by public access., has appeared at various times and I cannot tell you the
16 number of people who have said to me, "I saw you on T.V." People watch, they .really
i~ do. The other thing, I want fo say is that there are a number of shows that I get on cable
is living here in Petaluma;, and any of you who don't have cable are not getting T.V. unless
i9 you live some place other than where I live. so cable is necessary to get any kind of. T.V.
20 reception at all. There are programs that I never wafeh, but I am not upset. by the fact:
21 that there are every so often increases in the rate in order to incorporate these, new
22 programs. I would like. to see this program continue. I would. like to see support. for
23 community access because it does represent many facets of our community and I think
24 it gives people a forum to express whatever their opihions or talents may be. Thank
2s you.
26
2~ ®aVid P. Kerr (AT&T Cable Services, 111.1 Andersen Drive, San Rafael):. Good
2s evening, my name is David Kerr. I am Director of Governmental Affairs for AT&T Broad
29 Band and Internet Services. It is my pleasure to be able to speak to you tonight.
3o Unfortunately,. Ihave to speak in opposition; to the: increase in funding for public access
3i in Petaluma. The proposed increase to a $1.25 would be 150% increase and: the
32 proposed increase to $2.00 would. be a 400% increase.. The information that was
33 provided to the Council was somewhat different than the dollar amounts because I think
34 there was some discrepancy in customer amounts, .but the total amount at $2.:00 would
3s be $4,65,000 per year for public access in 'the Gity of Petaluma: 1Ne: went. back and
36 took a look at it, and I tried to come up with some,yardstick against which to measure
3~ this, and so I looked at some of the budgets that were proposed by the Buskey Group
3s which was the consultant to the City of Petaluma in its franchise proposal, and they are
39 proposing full-blown access. facilities and studios in the .amount of $340,000 and this is
4o riot just a single camera. This is all of the portable: equipment, all of the editing
41 equipment, all of the dubbing equipment, all `of. the studio equipment, all of the
42 automated playback equipment, and all of the equipment you would need to videotape
43' City Council meetings for $340,000 per year. Now, if the access group gets an
44 increase to $2.00 per month,, they would be able to buy all of the equipment, completely
4s replace the studio, all the facilities, all the facilities in the City Hall, every year, every
46 year, and have $120,000 left over. Now let's look at what we have already provided
Vol. 33, Page 396 August 23, 1999
i that has already .been provided by the ;residents and cable customers in Petaluma.
2 $1.2 mullion dollars has already' been provided for public access in Petaluma. Over $:1 :2
3 million dollars. -- 'th`at includes- a $790;;000', initial. grant and: then annual support
4 payments, of approximately $95,000. In addition to than; the City of. Petaluma. .also
s collects from the cable consumers, in Petaluma; has collected since 1995, :$1:6 million
6 doalars and currently collects $350,000 to $400.;0:00 a ;year in franchise "fees from he
~ cable- customers in the City of :Petaluma.. Additionally,; over irhe remaining course of'the
s franchise, ,lust on the a access rants alone.,, Petaluma Access could receive, up fo
f? g g
9 another million dollars in additional future funding and' we could -- and the franchise
io fees would be $4::5 or $4.4 :million dollars in fcanchi'se fees. if the franchise fees 'and.
i i the access fees were, combined:, then there's enough rnoriey collected from the cable.
12 customers in the City of Petaluma., to provide $495,000 a year in support for 'access...
13 1Ne would make the. following suggestions. One would. be to limit the.. community
14 access fe.e increase. to an. 'amount that's demonstrated. as a need. by'the community.
is Now; I know the access group has budgets :and I know organizations can p.at together
i6 budgets and want to spend money, but I 'am telling you, when: you. have a, .level of
i~ funding in which you could replace: an entire studio., all `the. portable equipment,., all of the
is editing equipment and all of the, facilities on ;an annual basis and till have $1.20,000 leff
i9 over, that's a lot of funding :and l don't ~fhink there's a demonstrated Comm"unity need for
20 that amount ofi funding. I would suggest, that the City use some of its franchisefees
21 that it collects to the tune of $400;000 :a year to support public access. I think that's an
22 appropriate and proper use for franchise 'fees. On the opt-in provision,., I did have ;an
23 opportunity fo talk'to Ms. Torliatt about'the opt-in and opf-out provisions for this..:
24
2s~ Council Member Torliatt: 1Ne discussed a few things.
26 `
27 Mr., 9Cerr: That's true, we did and;. I appreciated the opportunity to `discuss it-with :you:
2s On the. opt=in and opt''=out provisions,, the. difficulty we have with excluding certain =- the
29 difficulty we have mechanically excluding. certain. fees. from a subscrib'er's' bill is that
3o those:. fees fall into an .area 'of our billing system with taxes and other fees and '#hey are
31 applied on a franchise=code basis; they, are not applied. b.y individual subscribers. They
32 are applied on a franchi"se=code basis. However; on an' opt=in provision; opt-in
33 provisions, things that customers .elect to purchase from 'us as an opt=in, if they elect to
34 purchase the `services for those, those are designated as individual subsc_ riber choices
3s and so those vary from subscriber to subscriber... And. so it's a difference i'n the: way the
36 billing system handles° both an opt=in-;and an opt-.out and so that's another suggestion.
37 And so m:y last suggestion 'is thaf there be a sunset. provision on the increase funding.
3s If the Council does decide to increase funding, my suggestion would be That: it :be
39 sunset at °some point, I suggest of 18 months; 1 think that's a reasonable amount; of
4o time. I think it build's. an incentive into for the access community to ,find additional
4i funding support and 'if the community wants. and s"upports access; -that landing should
42 be available'in the community and sho;uldn't --'the only sole source of'that should riot;, be
43 the cable consumers'..
44
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 397
1 Council .Member Torliatf: ;I have a couple of questions and I discussed this with .David
2 before and one 'of .the questions I had asked you was what was your last increase for
3 the eab'le bills?
4 •
s Mr. `Kerr: It was 9%.
6
~ Council Member Torliatt: It was 9% and what was the total dollar amount?
8 - . ,-
9 Mr.y'Kerr:. 1 i`didn't look at the total dollar amount. I can tell you what the current rate is --
io the current ^rate is $15 for ,basic and $14.46 for expanded basic so the total monthly bill
11 for a subscriber that took only basic and expanded basic would be $29.56 in the
12 municipal, the city area of Petaluma.
13
14 Council Member Torliatt: And you are able to increase fees on an annual basis?
15
16 Mr. Kerr: 1Nell,, the City of Petaluma is a regulatory authority and. so you all should be
1~ aware that you are a regulatory authority and. have regulatory control over our rates,, but
18 the rates are set on a .federal level so on an annual .basis, it could be more than an.
19 annual basis, but we do it on an annual basis. 1Ne fill out a specific calculation for .the
20 federal government,. send it to the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) and
21 based on that .calculation, it tells us what our rates would. be; whether or not the rates
22 can be more br Tess. than they currently are based on the cost of providing the current
23 services that we provide,.
24
2s Council Member Torliatt: More or less?
26
2~ Mr. Kerr.: Yes.
28
29 Council. Member Torliatt: So they mandate that you increase the rates? You could
30 opt=out to: not increase rates. if-you choose?
31
32 Mr.~ Kerr: That's correct. We could choose not to increase the rates, that's correct.
33 ,
34 Council, IVlember Maguire: ; Mr. Kerr, may we make some- suggestions as to how AT&T
3s runs its .business:. .
36
37 Mr. Kerr:: I am .always open to suggestions.
38
=39 Council Member°Maguire: l'm pulling your leg a little. bit.. What do you expect the next
4o increase is going to be?
4.1
42 ~1Mr. Kerr: I can'i predict that.•
_ 43
44= Council Member- Maguire: Okay, it's interesting because in terms of percentage. wise
4s if we. were to-.opt for the full .$2,00 a month fee, then that's, you know, somewhat under
46 10% of the monthly fee; but so,all the numbers you are banding around we could sort of
Vol. 33, Page 398 ,August 23, 1999
i look at just at a zero and say that's AT&T's:ahare. It makes it-a, little ironic to'hear your
2 comment in `that case. You don't know what percent the next rate: increase: wilt be or
3 exactly when it will be? ~ ~ -~
4
s Mr. Kerr:. 1Nell, our-last rate increase was `in June and we do them on.an' annual. basis.
6 ,. ,
~ Council 'Member Healy:. I understand -that you have had a ~ couple ~.of~ =phone .
s conversations with th;e Assistant City Manager on the possibility of having an exemption
9 from the fee increase for ..low income. seniors on basic and the thrust of what:'I got back
io from Gene is that's: not something AT&T is ,particularly interesfed in doing ~and~ I'm not
ii sure if that's what you were referring fo as opt-.out in your discussion,. in y-our verbal
12 comments :a few minutes ago., but I wanted.. to explore that issue with you further
13 because as l understand, as I look at; the franchise agreement; Section 1066 atarts °with
is ohdinance o.e resolutionfto co lest from"gra let megstart a a nqu'theed ranee"eeaCe"esby
g g g if
i6 requested 'by the City by ordinance or resolution to collect from; subscribers a
r~ community ,access fee:" and then subsection C says, "the city shall identify in the initial
is ordinance or resolution an amount to be collected from the subscribers. that amount
i9 may be decreased. or increased by, resolution or ordinance of the City Council" and
20 that's the contractual" agreement in' the franchise agreement That the City has with your
21 company. :And what I thought 1 heard you -- the language doesn`t say it has to be
22 uniform rate and I think it would be within the Cify's legal ability and' legal rights under
23 this agreement to exempt ;low-.income seniors if it chose to do so and at that point
24 think.-- tell me wher,.e. I'm wrong with this -- it would be .your obligation to, rnplerrient that
2 kind of a program ifi that is. what the Council chose to do -and ,what, l'm hearing from you
26 is that AT&T has some, you know, some :computer software issues and I really cannot
2~ believe that 'an organization with your size and ~sophi'stication and ahousands ofi
2s computers scattered around wouldn't be .able to find a way .of exempting' low=,,income
29 seniors, if that's what.. Council wanted to do. Do you care. to rPSpond to that?
30
31 Mr. Kerr: Well, the initial response is twofold. One,.., as L explained to'you the. difficulty
32 that the billing system has in doing that! because taxes ;and, fees ar,.e applied on a
33 franchise-wide basis and they are not.applied on' an individual subscriber;basis because
34 they don`t. normally vary by individual subscribers. We .don't ihawe .an objection to do
3s thaf and I never expressed an objection to Gene. I ;only said that if it' is possible `t"o do it,
36 we'll do:'it, ,.but we have difficulty doing it.:and I explained t~o him that there might be ways:
37 to be able to accomplish. it, .,.but it's- not a simple, thing to do: 'It's no.t something that can
3g just be done. You can't just wake up :and decide to do it..
39 . ` . .
4o Council IVlember Healy: I`II accept that; okay. Thanks. - ~ ~ '~ ~ - -
41 ~ ~ ~ '
42 Council Member Torliatt: One of'the:'things that I just,"wan`t to p.ut on the table. is, at
43 any point in time,. if you're real)y concerned about the rate structure; and the rates. that..
44 are being charged to the citizens and including this $2:00: fee, I am happy to accept any:
4s matching funds from AT&T if you want to put up a .dollar for .dollar on, this aecess~ and•
46 providing funding for PCA, I'd be happy 'to deal with that=. I~ know the City ;receives
August 23; 1999 Vol. 33; Page 399
i money for that, buf that's for tfe running of the right-of-way in order for you to conduct.
2 your business within the City and you stated. before that there has been a contribution
3 of $1.2 million dollars,. $790.,000 of that l believe was what AT&T or TCI contributed: up
4 front, but the remaining part is actually what has come directly from subscribers and not
s from TCI or AT&T. So, I talked to you about this on the phone and I really want .to
6 make it clear that you don't take credit for things that you shouldn't be taking credit for:.,
7
s Mr. Kerr: I don't believe Itook-credit for that in here, Ma'am. I believe I said in ~here~,;: I
9 don't think it was unequivocal ~at any point: that the funding that comes. both in the. initial
io grant and the $96,000 ayear-are paid by cable subscribers. I don't think I've been
ii unequivocal about that at any point.
i2
13 Council Member Torliatt: You make it sound like there's a contribution ahd you „make.
14 it sound like the contribution is from TCI and AT&T and it's actually from the citizens.
is
i6 Mr. Kerr: I am very clear about that. _
r~
is Council Member Cader-Thompson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I agree with Pam, i
19 would .like to see AT&T maybe go into a partnership instead of -- it's actually at 75 cent.
ao or a $1:25 increase which would :be up to $2.00 or the $1.25 -- .maybe go_ into.. a
Zi partnership to support the community and., you know, AT&T does quite well, 'buf yet
22 municipalities many times the government decides to take money away when I feel `it
23 should be coming into,. you know; 'the. local cities through taxes. All of a sudden we
24 have tax increases wherein a. business like yours, you can increase your rates any tune:
zs you really want and weal, you can increase. your rates though,. so you are going: up.as
z6 municipalities many tunes are fighting for monies. and the beauty of having the: cable
a~ access is so that the 'public can watch the City Council :and really see what is going: on-
es in their community.. There's a lot of shows on there that support Petaluma. and there's
29 some shows on~ there that I don't really care for; but I think it's really important for the
3o democratic process that the public is able to watch whatever they want and I think it's a,
31 real value and I would hope that, I think what AT&T is more concerned about is if we
32 raise the rates that :you are going to be getting all the phone calls. But every time ,you
33 raise the rate, I will `tell you in my household, my husband is just furious because our
34 rates are going up again and the increase in rates since we ;first. started with cable
35 which was'Viacom and now its AT&T, they've really gone up and yet l don't feel like tine
36 public ever 'has a right to tell you that we don't want to pay the ;rates and then decrease
37 from. what your increase is and I think. I'd like to see. you have a partnership with our
3s town because we do care about.-the community and we want the community to know
39 what's happening.. The other thing as far as the low income, if people have basic, it
ao was my understanding that if`they chose-not to pay the increase that you would not take
41 their cable .away and so if somebody gets a bill and they minus whatever the increase
42 would be that your organization would not unplug their cable.
43
44 Mr. Kerr: Yes, that's true and that is what it says in the agreement.
45
Vol. 33, Page 400
AugusY23, 1999
i ~ Council Member Healy:- Just;'to clarify this; it says that if anyone doesn't pay it; then
2 they won't get unplugged. lt's not limited in that way..
3
4 °;Mr.. Kerr: That's. correct.
5 .~. ,
6 Council Member Maguire: Mr:. Ker.r., I've-not beenshy in the past about chiding TCI for,
7 being a pretty poor corporate citizen in this town and we went through a recent sort-.of,, a
s little+ bit of a 'knock :down, :drag out around .the merger. I'm a little disappointed that ;the
9 tone, that I'rn hearing here tonight: is not, significantly different #roni what 'I've heard in the
to past.. I am crurious; however, if"there pare any other TCI or AT&T :franchisees, who tlo
11 have the low=income exemptions anywhere.
12
rs Mr... Kerr: You mean, for public access?
14 _ ,_
...
is Council, Member- Maguire:: For either public access., primarily public access:, what l'rn
16 getting to, yes.
17
is Mr. Kerr; ,There's no franchise. that l'm familiar with that ,exempts. Lifeline or low-income
19 subscribers from public.aceess fees.
ao; -
21 Council Member Maguire.:. Okay, because ~l believe l~'ve heard of citiesw.here a simple
z2 filling out. of a form at City :Hall was all fhat was required as -- if .that's the case.:as
23 . Director of Governmental .Affairs.,. maybe yo.u could find out for us.and if so, work :with
24 us to, help us sfructure such a thing, because I believe there are dome in; existence.
zs
26 IU1"r..Kerr: I',m .confused. 'Are we talking; out exemptions from public access: fees or a
27 discount for ow=income individuals?
zs
29 Council Member Maguire: A reduction for the public access .:fees based on low
3o income.
31
32 Mr. Kerr: ~ There is; no place: that f .know of that does that,, but I~ do: know that the
33 standard policy is to provide a 20% Lifeline rate. if a person qualifies for S;SI or' SSDa.
34
3s Co.uncil Member Maguire: And does that take. 20% :off of the. public access fee as
36 we)I? Maybe thatls~ what we are talking :about. here.
37
3s Mr. Kerr: I don't_know if..that's net of taxes or not.
39
ao Council M
41 coo erati ember Maguire: I think it bears investigation and Iwould certainly ike some
p on in helping us sfrucfure that.
42
43 Council Member Keller:. I~appreciate your coming to this meeting tonight and:. falkirng
44 about some of these ,issues. AS the provider,, as the, new provider of cable: seNiee in
4s Petaluma, you ,guys :have a monopoly which has '.been. granted by the City to your
46 company. I find. it unfortunate that you object to any increase in the cable access fe;e,
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 401
i but you didn`t find any merit in any of it contrary fo your assertion that the money would
a be used- all" for equipment. In fact; the largest .percentage of the money is used. for new
3 personnel, which ~is vifally needed 'as has been mentioned': I think the real issue for
4 AT&T is contained on page 2 of "your letter;- "Cable T.V. is increasingly faced with
s competitive pressures from other providers of video entertainment and
6 telecommunication services... The. subscribers are competitive satellite dish services,
~ competitive Internet service providers and the customers of other users of the public
s right of way that are not required to pay these community access fees." I think what
9 AT&T is really concerned about is that if two bucks or a buck fifty is added to the price
io of your service in the competitive marketplace, that's money that AT&T can't charge
i1 because you're going to get that money anyway. You will float the rate of your cable
12 service provisions and, the Internet provisions aril the phone service provisions and the
i3 cable provisions of` multiple services -- thafi wild be floated to where the market allows
14 you to float it to. So if, it's 9% this:'year, which is probably about $2.50 on the combined
is services, and another 5% next year or another 8% next year,, you'll float that rate and.
... .
i6 the services that you' can push in there in the competitive marketplace. What we're
i~ saying is part of that_compettive marketplace includes the cost of providing the service
is to the community so we're going to~take that- money off the top. It's not .going to go fo
i9 AT&T and in the competitive marketplace; You`re going to have to accommodate that
Zo provision of local community ervices and that's just the way it is in my mind. And so if
21 AT&T suffers from~~a,~cornpetifive d'isadvantage,, you guys are going to have to figure out
22 some other 'way of making money andtaking that $2.00 for yourselves rather than
23 supporting "the~commurity services that. are required and I think extremely necessary
24 and extremely, important.-in Petaluma. For me, it's not a question of is this. an .increase
2s that; you know; is` unmerited. The question is who's ,going to get the money in a
26 competitive marketplace, AT&T or the citizens of Petaluma. Thank you.
Zs Council Member T'orlatt This isn't personal,, David, as I told you on the phone. This
29 is an issue we're needing to~ address as a'Gouncil for the community and one of the
3o things that really bothers me is the' fact that now that AT&T has been able to come in
3i here and use those cabling lines for the at-home service, for additional services that is
32 an income-producing~~~ehicle.:and 'the City isn't ,getting ~ any other revenues from that,
33 you're just using. the same existing percentage that you've been. paying us the entire
34 time and yes;, I know, it has to d~o`with phone service versus cable or versus cabling
3s services, but the reality ~is AT&T 'is making more money off of this community now that
36 you've bougl't .out; TCI and we haven't received 'any additional" percentages or any
3~ additional revenue. because of it and I really have a problem with that, in addition to
3s especially since you're concerned about- the dollar figure that is being charged to the
39 customer.
40
41 Mr. Kerr: If I could respond. to that - I would add, that AT&T is providing increased
42 services to its customers, it's providing. services to 'its customers that. are highly
43 desirable and highly demanded by the customers and it's providing services to the
44 customers that they normally wouldn't be able fo get without the ability of cable. Now,
4s with Internet access, we've always contended that Internet access or at-home products,
46 were a cable service and 'we pay 5% franchise fees on that. When we provide
Vol. 33, Page 402 Augpst,23, 1999
1 telephone. services in the .City :of Petaluma, those are regulated differently than .cable
2 services are by the Federal Act arid that's a different kind of thing, but. I would offer that
3 those services are services, that residents of Petaluma want, that.. provide value to. the.
4 . residents of Petaluma, and that Petaluma would be poor for~not.having it. -
s
6 Council Member Torliatt: I'm not. saying don't provide the services; what I'm .saying is.
~ give us a cut of them.
s
9 Council ,Member Maguir..e: Mr;; ,M,ayor; if I ;could. jump 'in, Mr. Kerr, in, the discussions
io we had on the ~AT&T/TGI~ merger, one of the things that came up was that, gosh' you
11 were ~usf putting that 5% away for the Internet,, just salting it away 'in a, bank account
12 and ,just had forgotten to: give .it to the City until we called TCl:.on if. So,. you know„ let's
13 set the, record straight', here. There's., a lot of gamesmanship that's gone on in the. pasf
14 here:. What we are sta#ing is that there is a very legitimate: cause .here. for us 9
is structure this the way we're planning. it: Now you're, getting a' little bit of the brunt of the
16 wrath here because there has been this: history, but-again; this ~is an opportunity for us
1~ to go fonnrard and start working together. Every ~se.rvice that. you; provide whether 'it's
is highly demanded or not, you're charg'ng~ for it and if all the utilities, the, cable industry
19 has got the highest complaints that. I hear of any' utility whatsoever so it's not like cable:
20 companies are Irke these, wonderful saints coming 'to town to deliver enlightenment to
21 the. benighted. masses. You know, certainly it's a worthwhile service., but people :are;
22 paying for 'it. so in the sense of fairness; let's ;just cut the :nonsense. 1Ne need to; go
23 about and. continue our deliberations. here; buf it would be nine,, it would,,be refreshing if
2s Governme tal .Affairs ,su, ddown to s andogether in"stead.,of fiav~ng AT&T send. -its
g .y tell us all. the. reasons why, we ~shouldn'a
26 charge for public access, for public benefit. That,:would be great if you came up and
2~ said; yeah; in Oregon or Washington they ado this 'kind of arrangement for people on
Zs fixed incomes and' we may have a billing problem, .but we'll see what we can do fo. fix
29 that .because we would like to be a partner here -with. you. Now; that's what I keep
3o waiting to hear and I haven't heard it yet: - ~ - ,
32 Mr. Kerr: How would you structure that partnership? I'vP..been on the job for five
33 months now so I'm fairly new to this. I've .been on :the ~~job ,since: May. I've met with Fred
34 and I've met with Gene two times and I've heard the accesscommunity -say today that
:-
3s my comments. on this were belatedly invited. I: haven t been ,invited to a ,Board meeting
36 of the public access group: I haven't been invited to partic'pate,:in the discussions or
37 planning for this and:. I; w.orald welcome that as an opportunity: I .have a history, I have
3s experience, I have background in public access:; If you are"talki'ri~g about, partnership,
39 you ..know, that's what' I am here to do:.
ouncil Member Maguire': Okay.. Then I encourage the Board to invite you and begin
42 those discussio.ns_. I think that would.. be a terrific,,;-p-ositive step .and certainly we don't
43 want to sit here and just continue to berate.you_. I mean, that's not exactly the funnest
44 thing to do, but --
45
46 Mr. Kerr; It's not fun for me. either.
August 23, 1999
Vol. 33,-Page 403
1
2 Council Member Maguire: Maybe we should hear the next speakers .and see and;
3 continue .on. Do you have others?
4
s Mayor Thompson: I've got Ms. Hamilton and then. I've got Mr. Healy.
6
~ Council Member Maguire:: It's not over yet, David.
s
9 (LAUGHTER) ~ .
io
ii Mr. Kerr: I am here for the long haul.
12
13 Council Member Healy: Just one question which is a follow-u:p on one of Councilman
14 Maguire's earlier questions or cornmenfs and that had to do with the 20% discount,.., or is
is - it a 20% discount or however that works for people who qualify for SSL. Is that
16 something that you currently provide in Petaluma?
~~
i8 Mr. Kerr: Yes.
19
20 Council Member Healy: So that means. you. have identified people., the customers,
21 -among all the customers who qualify for SSI in town?
22
23 Mr. Kerr: Yes. No, no, we haven't. That's. incorrect. We've identified, we know all
24 those. customers that have. identified themselves to us.
2s
26 Council Member Healy: "Okay and that's in connection with cable service or phgne
z~ service or both.
28
29
30
31
Mr. Kerr: Cable service.
.,Mayor Thompson: Thank,you, Mr. Kerr. Next speaker is Connie Madden.. .
32
33 Connie Madden: (2.15 Water Street):. Hi, I'cn very new to Petaluma.. .I've been here.;a .
34 coup a of weeks as a person who lives here., 21,5 Water .Str..eet, I was writing this on'the
3s way home -thinking from going to the Progressive Festival. yesterday just' talking to
36 ,people all day long-that, I think it was Norman .Solomon .talking about self=actualization,;
37 and I thought that's what this really is about. This is about people having .a dream .and
3s having a chance to actually create it and .how many chances do you get o~~do that= in
39 your life, you know, where you get to watch all kinds of stuff. Buf here there's a chance
4o to actually do and fake your vision and put it out as far as it will go; and I think ,'it needs.
41 .every kind of support that we can give it and in the AT&T. document which :I. ;just
42 skimmed. really quickly, it seemed to me the only point there 'was the real simple
43 sentence that said what PCA really gets is $95,000.. That's not enough to run the:
44 organization and it is the people creating th. a stuff with the equipment that ~ makes.. it..
4s Otherwise, the equipment. sitting by itself doesn't make PCA so at any rate I thinle it's. a
46 wonderful organization.. I've been able to be a part of it a bit and I really want to help.
Vol. 33, Page 404 August 23, 1999
1 produce some shows. There's an "awful. lof of .good. ideas out there waiting to happen
2~ and I think as. they start. to happen,, other projects in .the City will :blossom as well in a
3 kind of a`partnership with the T:V. shows that are to come, So I hope .we'll get your full
4 support"on that.
6 Connie Terry (4'36 Donner Avenue),: Good ..evening. I am a 30-year ..resident of
~ Petaluma since everyone 'is telling how long they" have lived, here: I'm .going to "speak.
g on the community access stations tonight. I'm the Publicity Chairman for the Petaluma
9 Women;s ;Club and also for the. Cotillion Dance Club here this year and, aorne other
to years so I have :a little experience i"n this. And we have: been ,getting the ;most wonderful
11 publicity: You know, we only have a weekly paper now. 1NO have. very little place to do
12 publicity in this town for anything that we do whether it's the Boys and Girls Club 'or
13 whatever.,. and we have been getting wonderful publicity: V1/e send them in the; article
14 three weeks ahead and word for word there's never been an"error .and w.e are really
is very pleased to have this for our community. I'd like to speak to something else. No
16 one has mentioned this, The children, the students,; pare getting a wonderful
1~ background. V1Fhen my daughter went to .Casa Grande., there was 'no such thing. She
is had to graduate from Berkeley and go fo a regular broadcasting school to learn .her
19 media and now they're doing if -- the young rnan that was doing the interviews fhfs
Zo evening is just:going to start high. school and. he did a wonderful job if you sawaome of
21 his- work last week'. It's more like agrown-up would do at a San Francisco station.
22 Thank you.
23
24 May Tomasetti' {2492 Sunset. Terrace): Good evehirg,, Mayor Thompson, and Council
2s M'embers. My name is May Tomasetti', 24:92 Sunset Terrace.. I am supporting 'the
26 community access channel for what it means to nonprofit organizations.; which find it
27 difficult- to become recognized. As a member of the P~aaluma 1Nornen's Club, F
2a appreciafe the value that was awarded. to, us recently ;for our fundraising .and for the.
29 filming lefting local citizens know we exist and for our involvement in. the cornmunffy.
3o Thank you.
31
32 Patty Zimmerman (4.07 Upham Street): 1Nell; what Connie said was fulfilling our
33: fdreams and F am affiliated with many :animal groups..and my comrn`tment°is to cut down
34 to,zero ttae number ofi animals that are euthanized in our shelter. Ewen byth'is spring or
3s 'by°next sprang, we are doing:. fundraisers"to raise. moneyfo spay as many female cats. as
36 possible, only fixing the females.;; t_hree:,months of'this by donation for free to the ,public
37 by d`onations;:. VVe are doing three weeks of theater :at the Polly Klaas Theater' over the
3s~ Halloween weekends ,:and so all of this kind of thing and 1 want to acknowledge ,J:oe
39 Devito and all ;the peo"plc that have done all the' wonderful stuff with the ,animals on the
40' T.V.. It's like we can``get this out and; as many times, so many people get.: fo: see it.
41 ,That's one-thing I've "cornrnitted to. The other thing. I'm cornrnitted to is the wildlife. I've
42 been doing a videowith our mutual friend., David; who. shall remain nameless at thin
43 moment, documenting the wildlife; the wetlands, the'~flora, and fauna of Petaluma wh'ich~
44 -we're com.mitfed to''"having it stay the way if is rather than Having it all concreted :over
4s and' having the habitat for people an, dwildlife' disappear, brat it's really funny flow the
46 timing was because if Davfd Kerr hadn't spoken before me "and 1 hadn't known .about
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 405
1 . AT&T because I just got off the phone with another 40 minutes of aggravation: with
2' 'AT'&T'. I quit AT&T. I switched from AT&T about three o.r four months ago to a company
3 .called Quest,. and it was very interesting~lbecause they kept then sending me bills saying.
4° that I had a$33.00 credit and wound 1 -- -:and this is my bill, a.nd I kept saying why don't
s you refund my.$33.00: I have switched from you: This went on and then. I finally found,
6 out froria_ Pac'Be'll someone told. me I had been switched back to AT&T and I thought
~ that. was very strange so they switched m'e back without. my permission. I then just
.g today got a bill for $55.00. Now my bill with Quest had been about $13.00 and I m not
9~ really quitesure, you know, what's. going to happen now. They are supposedly clearing
to it~ up ---~60 -to 90 days.'_I will get_ my $33.00 check back. They wiped out the $55.00 bill
11 and I have: had to gb~tlirough all the trouble of, .you know,. going „back. to Quest, which ,to:
12 me ~is very~strange: ,I was very annoyed about it. Why anybody would continue to have
13 `their long distance carrier be AT&T, I don't know, when. they have a choice of .having,
14 their°bill:cut by two-thirtls: Now, that's one thing. The other thing having said all that if I
is don't have AT&T, do~ I not get cable and.. I don't get public access anymore. Do I have
i6 ~fo go througl AT&T? Can I get it through Quest? No. Well., that's a monopoly, isn't it?
is Mayor Thompson: 1Ne already: stated, or.Mr. Keller already stated, there was, in fact. a.
19 rrlonopoly: . ~ .
Zo
21 Ails. Zimmerman: So what am I supposed to do about that then?
22 .
23 Mayor Thompson:. Move into the county and get an antenna.
24
Zs Ms. Zimmerman: So what. that means in fact is if I want to have public access
26 availability now, I have to pay two-thirds more on-my phone bill to get that so do you not
27 think that AT&T --
as
29 Council Member Hamilton: No, you don't have 'to have it on your phone bill. It is a
3o cable T.V. bill.
31
32 Ms. Zimmerman: So I 'don't have to be signed up with AT&T for phone. To the poor
33 layperson it is very confusing. So thank. you.
34
3s Joe DeVfo: You. guys really beat up that. poor ,guy from AT&T. It's a lonely life when
36 you're the big guy on the block. I will tell you what; I made a pledge: the last time I was
37 here. I said. I would support water conservation if you guys would do -- right, did I, do a:
3s job and that's not over: But I .make a pledge to AT&T. I mean, I think everybody has tb
39 work together. If They will become a $500 corporate member just like Nokia did, I will
4o put all the power that I have behind as an independent producer to show a heart beats
41 underneath that suit. And I love the numbers he just. gave us. I mean, I just got chills
42 thinking about the money w.e could do a great job here in Petaluma with our community
43 because again I am with AT&T. .But you are not going to see the major networks -show
44 up at our doorstep :and. talk about the things that go on in our community unless we are
4s floating down the river, :unless something happens. So I think we can do a great. job
46 with that money. So let' us decide, but again, we can work together. We can be
Vol. 33, Page 406 August 23, 1999
i partners. 1Ne, need big guys, and we need. little, guys and I g;of, used to being a little^;guy.
2 So thank. you. .And I ,never got a chance 'to tha_ nk in publicthe"pcople == they may not
3 be here. -- but whoever the owers that ~be that ave us this o ortunit .;, Thank ou~~and
p 9 PP Y Y.
4 I want to give it back by continuing the water conservation with the: Salvation Army: ~ ~1Ne
s just hit with o.qr Kids' Spree. 1Ne just .did. Odes: There is going to be: more of 'that, '
6 That's our pled a for the ,New Year so thank ou. Kee u .the ood work u s.
9 Y p p g ,, g Y
~ -~
,.
8 Rose Nagy Ostrander (1757 Brompton Street): Mr. ~ Mayor and Council:,
heard about all .the reat o ortunities that wehave to~see.
io the Ci trand~ have onlrebey 9 pP
Y : y en here six~years and I love "this place,,, it s home now I want
i i to tell you a joke, btaf to set.. up the joke., ........It's something very~near and dear to rne: It ,
12 has to do. with individual rights and. with the freedom, of speech ,I~ was born to a country,
i3 a very small country in Europe„ Hungary, where there wascommunism: UVhen I „have.
i4 four and a half; my parents decided it was time to leave and its was not something fh~at
is was legally done and so we were going to flee fh'e .country. At :four and a.half, I was in
i6 prison and I almost died, but that's not the joke part. My father was:_also.irn prison.. He_
i~ was in there for two years., my aisters for eight months. -- they.were,teenagers -- and ;rny
ig mother for a year and a half This was simply because. 'they triedto" I'eave;;a,country fhatr ,
i9 had no individual freedom and rights. As far as the freedom_the-speech, that's where
20 the.joke comes in, The gentleman that was in °th'e -same cdll with my father; he was a .:
2i lawyer, and he told my father this joke. .It was about .a ..gypsy and w:e have a lot Hof
22 wonderful gypsies and they play great music in Hungary and he had had -enough
23 because they kept asking him to play Russian. music. He couldn't. play.his.rumana,, _he
24 couldn',t ,play his Hungarian music, he wanted to just ,play his fiddle and he decided `it;
2s was time to leave and I'm out of here and. so he starts to go across :the lake and it`s,very: .
26 swampy a_ nd he gets lost.. and: finally` he's caught by' the army. They sLLearch him „and ,',
27 they finally make him open. up his violin ease and when they fake out thee. violin, ,there's
2s a picture: of Aguashi, who was the'. Prime Minister at the `time; and the. guard says,
29 "Gypsy; why are you .carrying this with you?" And he said,. "just in case l got homesick.`'
3o The reason I'm, telling you this- joke.- is .because that, lawyer was in there for six months
3i for telling, that joke: So regardless of what we think of each other, our Counc_'il M,emb,ers
32 and our Mayor, we have a right to speak and we have an opportunity-and. we Piave an
33 obligation to speak our minds arid I think most of us; are `willing to pay for fh.af: .I think a
3a couple of dollars: a month. is not: that much -- I~think most 'of ~us c`an afford that -- and' J'm
3s an independent producer and it's a wonderful opportunity for anyone ~to do, that,.. btit '
36 mostly I love watching your'sho_,w, which I watch regularly. It,'helped me decide whether-
3~ or not to vote for some of you.
38
39 (LAUGHTER)
40
4i Ms. Ostrander.: I also like to see the shows l can't attend:
42
43 Council Member Maguire: So, did you?
44
4s Ms. Ostrander; It was a great opportunity. I had no way of being able to see;all of you
45 at one time and' when cable access m~ited everyone to peak, I had an opportunity to
August 23, 1999
VoL 33, Page 407
i -sit and watch what you had to say and thereby actually seeing and not having someone
z interpret it; not ha~irig-someone else's words, nobody else's body language;. it was your
3 words, your .body language, ,your heart that was coming through and so I thank you for
4 supporting PCA and' I hope you continue to do so. Thank-you.
5
6 (APPLAUSE)
s Mr. Beatty: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council like ,I said earlier before you, you have
9 some different scenarios for budgets depending on different funding levels. Jim Ernst,
io who is the Treasurer from RCA, is here along with some other Board members if you
i i have any specific. questions about alternatives. However, before you get into that, in-
i2 defense of M'r. Kerr, I would like to say that he is .not, the. policy maker for AT&T and in
13 the short few months he has been here., I will say that I have had more conversation"s
14 with him, particularly initiated by him, #han I have 'had from any of the previous
is government affairs folks: from our various cable things so he's doing the best thing to be
16 a partner and he has a role to fulfill also. So, I just wanted to give him credit for that.
i~
is Council Member Torliatt: Like I said, Gene, it wasn't personal.
I9
20 Mr. Beatty: He knows that too.
21 .
22 Council Member :Maguire: One quick question, Gene, on the budget. There's ~a. line
23 ifem about halfway :down on this new .one we got tonight, first page, 1 A, Commercial
24 Crime. Are we subsidizing now?
as
26 (LAUGHTER)
27
2s Mayor Thompson: I see Commercial, Multi-Peril
29
3o Mr, Ernst: That's for our insurance coverage, yes, we are subsidizing crime in the City
31 of Petaluma.
32
33 Council. Member Maguire: Are you insinuating insurance is a crime? Don't let the
34 Mayor hear that. ~ ,
35
36 Mr. Ernst: By the way, I would like to extend an invitation to Mr. Kerr on behalf of the•
37 Board of Directors. that he does come to our meetings. We would greatly appreciate his
3s input ,given what he has put in his letter. He is very well qualified and very experienced
39 and we could .use that information, so please come to our next meeting. I did want to
4o ask him a question, however. In his letter, he does allude: to the fact or even states that
41 there are 19.,000 members that are paying these fees. 1Ne have only been collecting
42 from 16,000,. so maybe. you can -- we don't have to raise our fees quite as much if we
43 collect all the money that is due us.
44
4s Council Member Torliatt: The audit is coming up soon.
46
Vol. 33, Page 408 :August 23, 1999
i Counc,l Member Keller: That :actually was an ,issue when we went -through the
2 contract on the approval. of the merger -- what were the number of accounts. and so
3 welcome the audit.
4
s Mr. Ernst: 1Nhat we have provided for you is four alternative: budgets:, UVe~ have
6 approved three.~ofi those based on the level of funding that the City chooses to, provide
~ to us: The first budget which is approved Budget A is at :our bare bones '.level that we
a talked to ;you .about the last. time we were. here and cut back services and we show that,.
9 we are spending all the money that we have at a very ,minimum amount of services. that
io are available and we've attached to that 'the assumptions-'for that approved budget so
.1 i that you cane see what exercise: we went through to come to those numbers and how we
12 spend these dollars., And. by the way, :all of these dollars :are for operating purposes..
i3 None of these, dollars in this; budget is for capital impra~ements. 1Ne hare. also
i4 provided an alternative, budget,.°Budget: B, which has a small increase of :$50;000 which
is. ~ was based on the con~ersafion about, a, swing grant, ifi you will, in anticipation of
1,6 increase. in fees, but we.:neede,d those funds Curren, tly and we have. provided an
.i~ expenditure list for those, which: would be increase in our payroll and a few of the other
rs service. fees.. One beingprofessional fees .,because we do have an operational audit,
i9 which is scheduled for this year that we are obligated by our agreement to conduct,. so
20 have conducted. 9 n_d a ain, we hgave a se ar here are some c
21 variance from Bud et A to the Bud et B where t ptions that. show the
hanger in increase..in
22 expenditure and increase: in our- revenues, our support. We provided a third. budget,
23 approved Budget C: ..Again, the Board of ',Directors h'as~ approved this contingent upon
x,24_ the City. Council increasing ouc fees to the $2..00 per door that was suggested at our'lasr.
Zs meeting and --
26 -
27 Mayor Thompson: Can I interrupt? What happened. to the $1.2'5 budget?
28
29~ Mr. Ernst: 1Ne anticipated 'that the City Council would go directly to th-e $2.Q0 so we
30. put together the 'budget at the '$2,00 :fee. We also anticipated that this. would. not, occur
3i until the fourth.. quarter of our fiscal year before: we get our first. dollars so you ;can ,see
32 that the cornrnunityaccess fees ,have not gone: up'substantially in our approved Budget
33 C for this current fiscal that. we are now in. And,,, :again, vue have a separ,.ate set of
34 ~' assumptions there fore that which would increase the fees from 50 cents 'to $2:00 a year
3s ~ starting in the fourth quarter which would be April 1 of next year before, we would'
3.6 receive those funds, The ,fourth budget that we provided. the City Council ;is a.proposed
~3~ :budget, that's for the. year 2000=200:1,, again on the assumption that. th-e fees will ke
3s'~increased to the full '$2.00 pear door and we are assuming 16.,000 subscribers, ,not;
39 19;000 or ,another number at this point in time. At that ' evel, we have set, aside some
4o excess funds over the expenditures for a prudenf reserve. INe feel it is the responsible
4i way to approach. gur budgetary process. to put some dollars. away into a prudent
42 reserve which 'would ..have. identified. fo approximate three months of our operating
43 expenditures so in the event of substantial increase in. fees at any point. along,the line or
44 a delay as we ,have experienced hisforcally from AT&T or TCI in the collection of our
45 fees, whether it ~be 1``6,000 or 19;000 ubscribers, so that we can continae to operate
46 and .pay our bills and make sure we meet our 'fiduciary d'ufy. In addition, we have
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 409
1 borrowed money from our capital fund and we would use #hose exfra dollars to repay'
2 the capital fund which are dollars seta aside specifically for the replacement of
3 equipment as it wears out or as it ..becomes .obsolete or as' the: services demand that. we
4 .provide more services to the community, we will need more and better equipment.
s Th"en; any excess dollars would be put away for future capital improvements and, again,
. 6 there's a separate set. of .assumptions for that fourth proposed budget for the next #iscal
~ year. We would be happy to answer any questions on any of these numbers.
s
_9 Council Member Keller: Just a quick clarification on 'the proposed budget, 1999, or
to actually on your budget breakdown for 2000-2001 fiscal year. I just wanted to clarify
11 that the proposed budget breakdown indicates fiscal year 1999-20D0 -- that should be
12 200.0-2001. because that matches -- it's the last two pages?
13 iVfr. Ernst: Yes, that's correct.
14
is Council .Member Cader-Thompson: As far as like the reserve fund, is that something
16 you are going to be doing every year -- that would be the $48,000 or how much do you
1~ want to puf ih reserve?
is
19 Mr. Ernst: 1Nell, the first thing we want to do is put money into a prudent reserve which
20 we anticipate to be approximately three months' operating expenses within the year
21 2000-2001, would be approxima#ely '$54,000. If this is approved and our expenditures
22 go as we anticipate,,, we will -have, most of that funded in the fourth quarter of th"e year
23 2000, the fourth quarter of the 1999-2000 fiscal year, and then the balance will be in the
24 year 2000-2001. As our expenditures fluctuate up or down, we will modify that. Then,
2s in addition to that, excess funds will then be earmarked to repay the capital fund which
26 is $34,050, money that we 'b"orrowed out.of the capital; for operating purposes and: then
27 the third level of reserve, if you will, is an anticipated $4,:000 per month. that would. go
2s into the capital reserve. if you will and that $4.:;000 would be ongoing every month from
29 that point forward as funds are available. If funds aren't available, we cannot put it in
3o the're..
31
32 Council Member Cader-Thompson: I think what I would like to see, if we agree to the
33 $2.00 `per month, is that acertain amount gf money goes into reserve every year
34 because I anticipate that this PCA will actually be growing. You may end u.p growing
3s out of your~facility.
36
37 Nlr: ,Ernesf .And we .have established that in this budget for that specific purpose. Ms.
- ~ 3a Torliatt had. suggested that the last time we were here.., it was seriously considered: by
39 the Board and agreed. on that we should set some dollars aside after we met our other
. 40 obligations. Again, those are defined as a prudent reserve so that. we don't simply have
41 money set` out"there that we can't have, access to and' use so that we can keep our
," 42operations going, as well as our obligation to repay" borrowed funds -- it comes first, but
43 then~we have established .a policy to.put $4„000. a month or up to $4,000 finances being
44 available f.or that specific purpose.
Vol. 33, Page 410 August,23, 1,999
i Mayor Thompson: Thank you. To, begin with, does anybody have-a problem wth,the
2 $50,000 swing ,grant?
4 Council Member Hamilton: Are all the speakers.finished?
5
6 Mayor Thompson; Yes. --
7
a Council Mern`ber Torliatt: I 'had an additional question regarding the reserves. So
9 your anticipating 'and the part I guess. that. concerned me was up to $4.;,0.00::
io
i i Mr, Ernst: All the -money- that's .left up to $4;00Q.
i2
13 Council Member T.orliatt: Exactly and: what I, would. really like #o see: is a ce.rfan
14 amount that you are.. setting aside that. looks at the long-term viability of 'the: Fetal.uma
is Community Access Center and: if it's $4;000 a month or you know $3,000 a .month, 'I'd
16 like to see at least a rnipim Y dollar amount that g
17 how that reall relates ol.ic wise with our' Boardou are -settin aside sand I don't know
Y of Directors and the Council, but L,'d
is hate to see in the future that; okay, this month th,ere:'s nothing: left over so .we're .not.
r9 going to put anything away: We've out .spent our budget and the whole,; I .guess;. one of
20 the. reasons . that. I would': support this increase is because I know we"re setting aside
2i money so' ih the. long Perm the citizens. don't have to keep reaching into their pockefs.
22 -
23 Mr 'Ernsf: In direct, response to tliat_, if you. look at the proposed :budget for the year
z4 200Q 2001, at the level of funding that we .anticipate receiving at $2.00 a door and .the
Zs additional income and support that we hope to receive, we .have budgeted expenditures
26 to leave $76,00.0. That $7,6;000: first will go. off 'to increase our ,prudent reserve, then: to
27 go off and' pay fhe..balance of the. loan repayment.; which once that 'is done, -that will no
2a longer be r,.equired. For that year, there's $42,000 earmarked to be mailable. for that
29 prudent'. reserve, or for the, capital rreserve, :and in all future years we will not have a loan
3o fo repay. Therefore„ we, would have more than $_48,000 and it has already been agreed
31 to by our Board of Directors to set aside $4,000 a month for t6iat specific .purpose....` -
32
~~• , .
33 Council Member Torliatt: So, do you have: any idea orhave you done.-any forecasting
...
,3a, as to how long.. you would accumulafe funds as far as what .you're ultimate -dollar
3s amount for reserves .would be; whether it. be $500;,00.0 or $6Q0,000 or, you-.know; is this
36 a 1.0-year plan for building up reserves; is it a 15-year plan?
37
3s Mr. Ernst: Well, it's possible that those dollars, will be spent for capitaf'improvements
39 and capital equipment so there rnght not be. an increase or building up of that; reserve.
4o Those are monies: set=.aside- specifically for that purpose in addition to the
41 approximately $20Q;000 that is being held by the. City for that purpose as well. It:is our
42 goal that we don't imply deplete that :$200;,000; -spend all of our money onope~rating
43 purposes and than find if' we need new equipment.we; have to come back to the City
_ .. .._
44 Council. Instead,. our plan. 'is to add an ap""proximate $4;000 a month, or~ at exactly
as $4,000 a month, we will. set that aside as we fie.ed to improve our equ"ipment. We
46 hopefully, as we know now; we're asking for only $26,000 'for equipment increases: for
August 23, 1999 vol. 33, Page 41`1
i this year. 1Ne have already had :conversations with our committee on equipment
2 acquisition that at that level we should be able to. in the near future continue to fund for
3 capital improvem, ents and :have sufficient funds without drawing down on .the. capital
4 held by the City and continue. to perpetuate our capital improvement fund and buy new
s equipment on an as needed basis.
6 _
~ Council Mernber'Torliatt: One of the things that I would like to do is schedule at least
s on an annual `basis, the PCA Board of Directors comes to they Council, gives ,us ari
9 update on what the status is, what the finances are, so, you know, we are gall ~;on the
io same page. We're providing inforrnafion to the community on how great you are doing.:' _ ,
ii and so that's something l would like to start doing. ~ ~ ~ ~ -.
i2 -
13 Council Member Hamilton: M'r. Mayor, we received_something=from-Gene Beatty with`
14 a suggestion than we d_ o the fee increase in stages and. I just. want to respond. to than. ~ I
is don't think it is a good idea. It might- have been a, good idea.when we first initiated and.
16 started PCA to start with the fee that we have right .now and then we graduated ;up, but• ,:
i~ right now I feel that PCA is in the hole financially and we need to, and operating at;.a, , .
is disadvanfage,, and that they need. to catch up with- themselves, especially in ~sfiaffirig;
i9 and so I would like to go right to the $2.00 a month and I think that's fair arid:.
20 appropriate. ~-
21
22 Council Member Torliatt: I want to make sure that it doesn't sound like we_are bailing
23 PCA out because they --
.j
24
2s Council Member .Hamilton: I didn't. mean it Like that. I meant that the original funding
26 has not been enough and it has not been enough for along -time. and. when ,an.
27 organization operates that way, it's very st'rairiing and difficult. It's amazing that PCA
2s has been able to do what they have been able to do, so, I don't think I know that we're
29 not bailing them out. Thank you for clarifying that. And that-would be my motion.
30
31 Council Member Maguire: I would: support that, but I would like to add the provision.
32 that we do have' a ;low-income discount or .exception.
33
34 .Cgunc.il `Member Keller.:. If, in fact; there is a low income rate or discount, 20%
3s discount, in effecf for those people who self-qualify thats already in effect, if it ~ is
36 possible in the accounting to likewise give a 20% discount on the access fee for those
37 bills., I'd be happy to include that in there, as well.
38
39 Council Member Hamilton: Okay, I would too. I'll make that into the motion.
40
41 Mayor Thompson: If we are going to go fora $2.00 increase --
42
43 Council IVlember Hamilton: It's. up to $2.00.
44
45 Council Member Torliatt: It`s to $2:00 -- we"re not increasing it;$2 00 we're increasing
46 it $1.50.
Vol. 33, Page 412 ,August 23, 1999
1
2 Mr. Ernst: It is:a 300%° not' a 400% increase as indicated in the letter as weir:
3
4 Mayor'Thompson., ,Because I came here,fhis evening, looking at a $.1.25, to be~ very
s honest with you, and' if we. are going to go. to that :higher ;stage,. than. I do agree: with. Mr.
6 Kerr in one sense that there shogld be a sunset clause on it to find out where we are,,. in.
7 say'two,years or three years, and to.~see if that is sufficient#unding or is it not..sufficient,
s funding because I think it's a lot to ask of the taxpayers: l mean I am 'in full agreemenf.
9 with.$1Y:25. 1 have no problem with fhaf whatsoever.. .
io -
i=i`~Council Member Maguire_:~.-Thank you. I don't see a compelling reason for a.stansef:
12- clause in this case. V11e''re talking about what typically is maybe the eost.of one eup of
1:3; coffee pe;r: month' it's been .compared to. I. do,n't think.-- I know if you are. on a fixed
i4, income; every dollar can seem Lke° a :burden in which- case: I think we .need to address
is that at some discount structure: Ultimafely, L think we're setting the groundwork for' a
i6` good solid.,. healthy. PCA~ budget. In fact, I think it's going to be healthier than the City's
i? budget-o~uerall,~~bu't until, =- we can come back and revisit this at any time.. If it seems;=to
i8 'be, that"we've gone'way ove"rboard or; you. know; vastly deficient, I'm sure we`re going.
i9 to .hear about it and`we'll be putting it back on .here, for'further discussion..,
Zo>'',
21 Council Member .Ceder-Thompson;- Mr. '.Mayor, Connie Terry brou:ghf up a good point
22 that we only, our local paper is just once a week,, and' so ,PEA is not just watching the
23 City .Council or other~shows, it's .really ;giving information out to the public and' that's .a
24 value: '1Nhen you have a City that has: a newspaper that's gone down to once a week;.
2s you .know, you are- .losing a lot of information and 1 think there are a lot,, of..other
26 organizations~"fhat would probably come here and say we heard about this, on the PGA..
27 channel, so that`s why people are participating. I have a problem; you know; also
2s raising the. rates because it' just happens to be an; issue in our house about those rates,
29 but for the value of opening, up the democratic process: into sornebo'dy's home; I think :it.
3o is fairly inexpensive and as long as people on reaC fixed incomes have the option. of riot,
31 having their. rates raised and I support.. this; so I'm going 'to supporf the $2.00 -- up to
32 $2.00, it's not a $2.00 `increase.:: I think it is a great value to the community. Look ~at the-
33 people who have worked on this progcarnming'for so rriany years and new people come
34 into town :and. the first thing 'they do is 'they seem' fo jump i'r and it.`s because; they are
3s getting information off' the access television and it's just a great `interactive so, I'rn going
36 to support. it:, - -
37 ~ . .
3s Council Member Healy: I will be reluctantly noting against tF~is. f was :also, prepared to
39 support the .$1',.25 :fee which was, as has been indicated; a 150% increase; .and is the
4o full amount that PCA ongmally requested and I don't want my no vote to be thought of
4i in any way diminishing or demeaning what- you are doing because you: are doing
42 wonderful work and I think 150% increase based on the original materials submitted
43 and the Buskey reporf (thinkaupported; it, So; I would have been very pleased to~ have
44 supported that. 1 am not willing, fo support a 3Q0% .increase and I am, .however, very
46 olw- ncome. seni'o saa~ndl hope that doesreswe do follow thro.uS h oritthat exemptions ':for
. g
August 23, 1999
Vol. 33, Page 413
1
2 Council. Member Cader-Thompson: Mr. Mayor, I just want to make one more
3 comment on that. The last time the.'increase -- when was the last increase?
4
s Council Member Torliatt: The original fee..
6
~ Council. Member Caller-Thompson: And so how many years has PCA been on fhe
8 air. It may sound like a 300% increase, but if you realize that each. year we weren't.
9 even raising .it by 10 or 15 cents or quarter a year, it may seem like a lot of money., but it
to really isn't if we would have been incrementally been raising the fees.
11 ~:
12 Mayor Thompson:. Yeah, we might as well call a vote on this.
13
14
15
16
1~
18
19
20
Motion: ".Council 'Member Hamilton moved, seconded by Keller adopt Resolution 99-
169 N.C.S, rescinding Resolution 95-213 N.C;S., and increasing the Cable Access Fee
to $2.00 per month per cable subscriber. Said fee is to be submitted to subscribers by
AT&T and remitted directly to Petaluma Community Access, Inc., on a quarterly basis.
The.. fee ~wilf be :applied at a 20% discount to subscribers who qualify for the 20%
discount on the :Basic Service :Rate.
z AYESS
22 NOES:
23 ABSTAIN:
24 ABSENT:
Cader-Thompson, Maguire, Hamilton, Torliatt, Keller
Thompson,' Healy
None:
None
2s
26 'Motion Carried: ~ '5 -2
27
2s 2. Discussion ~ and .'Possible Action Regarding Interim One-Time Funding for
29 Petaluma,Cornmunity~Access (PCA).
30
31 Mayor.Thompson: And what about the $50,000 swing grant. Would that be on Item
32 2?
33 _ . ..
34 Council Member Maguire: May I make a suggestion? Since the City is laboring under
3s' its own budget constraints and we've gone through, you. know, a recent budget process,
36 so we're weary clear on that, I'd like to propose that we make the funds available as. a
37 loan to be paid back out of the increased fee.
38
39 Mayor Thompson: Yeah, I agree with that.
40
41 Council Member Torliatt: Mr. Mayor, since there was a call for the vote on the last
42 item before I was able to speak, I just want to speak to the concern that Council
43 Members had regarding the increase to the $2.00 and l~ guess that's one of the 'reasons
44 I'd really like to see PCA come back and give a report to the Council on the status of
4s what their budget is so we can review it on an annual basis and look at what the fees
46 should be or maybe shouldn't be.
Vol. 33, Page 414
.August 23, 1999
1
2 Mayor Thompson: Mr. B.eatty~, you indicated that PCA's funding is going, to begin in
3 January?
4
s Mr. Beatty: 1Nhat I indicated was that there is -- and .maybe Mr. Kerr can respond o
6 this --
s Mayor Thompson: I do,n't -- no, just give me..an approximate time because I'm thinking
9 about a pay back at what; poinf in time, --
io
ii Mr. Beatty: I wouldn't anticipate that ,PCA would realize an increase in the revenue
r2 from this'fee until maybe as late as, middle of April of next year.
13
14.
is
16
i~
i8
Council Member Maguire: So, Mr. Mayor, maybe we"d give them one year to. pay it'
back. '
Mayor Thompson: 1Ne're doing:an interest rate?
19 Council M.emb_ er Maguire: Interest-rate would be fine by me.. .. ,
Zo . ~ - .
21 Council .M'emb'erHamilton: M'r. Mayor;. I think it:'s important to articulate why 'it would
22 be a loan in"stead of a grant and I'd Like to just go over what.~we would-be taking away
23 from our bud et; the one that we ust. _
g ~ j 'approved... I °wanf someone on our staff t"o tell :us~
2a what that $50;0:0.0 would be. used for. Isn't that part of~ the discretionary allocated
2s money that is in the General Fund and Aso that represents police cars -and new positions.
26 and so if we loan it, 1,just want.- to know what's going. to .happen in the next year and ;a
27 half. .,..
- r~
29 Mr. Stouder: Yes, I'm not prepared to answer that this evening. Let's bring it back:
30
31 Mayor Thompson: Qkay, let's bring it back. ~ _
32 -
33 Council Member Maguire: The: point being that. if we were not. making ;a grant we
34 would be losing something. we_'"ve already budgeted for in the recent budget process if I
3s understand it. -
36 ~ .
t , z -_ ~.
37 Mr. Stouder Or borrow from: the Reserves or borrow froi~n the anticipated, Year-End
3s Balance.
39
=4b Mr. Beatty: Yes,,; that's my understanding that if would be from the. year-end. balance,
41 assuming there was one,
42
43 Council :Member Hamilton: That's what 1 wanted to hear:
44
4s Council Member .Keller: So; if w.e did this as~ a loan, I assume that in terms: of their
46 operating expenses, they could use That ..loan immediately. So, 'if they aren't going to
August 23, 1999 VoL 33, Page. 415
i see revenue unfiil p:ossibfe April next year., can we do this payable 12 months from when
2 the new revenue stream starts? ~ ~ -
3 --
4Council Member Maguire: When they start receiving the increased fee?
s ~ -~
6 Mr. Ernst: I think That would be an equitable -- _ .
s Council. Member Maguire: If the new revenue stream from the increase would start.
9 say in April and- then. essentially we give you 12 months from:'that point for repaying the
io $50,000 advance.
i~
12 Mr. Ernst: If it is the agreement of the City Council that it is a loan as opposed to an
13 out and out. grant,.. then `we would like to extend that period over atwo-year period.,
14 which would be consistent with some requests for revisiting this and. every year, we can
is revisit that. That would give us an opportunity to finally get some resources in to PCA,
16 finally get an opportunity to demonstrate what we can do with, the increased funds and if
i~ we have to pay it back in that first year, we're going. to be limited to some degree. One
ig of the things right now by not having that extra. $50,000 is the way we've scheduled the
i9 prudent reserve and the repayment of the loan that significantly cut into our ability fo set
20 aside funds for future capital improvement. So; we would like to at least extend that out
21 over a 24-month period from the period. in time when we first received funds from.
22 AT&T, which may not be until May 15 of next year.
23
24 Council Member Hamilton: I'd like to know from the City Manager where this money
2s is going to come from. I didn't see that we had $50,000 extra dollars in the budget -- so
26 how are we going to function if we make atwo-year loan or even a one-year loan?
2~
2s Mr. Stouder: Again, we would have a million dollar reserve. 1Ne could borrow from the
29 reserves.,. and bring that back to the year-end anticipated balance. That would be my --
3o you're asking me to comment.
31
32 Council Member Torlatt: Which is over $100,000 -- the`year-end balance of the:
33 budget that we approved is over $100,000.
34 '' _
3s Mr. Stouder: Yes.
36
37 Council Member Torliatt: So there is cash available to make,a .loan.
38 -
3a Council Member Hamilton: Okay. -
40
41 Mr. Ernst:. My understanding was that $50.,000 came out of the~'funds' collected. from
42 TCI through the audit as well, which was -- ~ r
43 - - .,
44 Council Member Hamilton: But it went into the General Fund.
45 i . _
Vo1..33, Page 416
August 23,, 1999
1 Council Member Maguire.:, I`,tl personally like to keep 'it a liffle shorter than two years
2 from. tie point. that they ,receive the increase in' fees. ,Maybe atwo-year window, all.
3 together. Two years from. now or 18 months: from when you receive the funds.
4
s Mayor Thompson: How about two years-from September 1st.
6
~ Council Member Tor,'liatt: ''You have to do it based ~on when they are .going to receive
g the income so they have .the ability to pay it back':
9 .. -
lo Mayor Thompson: `Which is April; April of next year..
11
12 Council Member ,Hamilton: So two years .from April.
13
14 Council Member Torliatt: Two years, from April.
is
16 Council Member .Hamilton: April ,2000.
17
is Council. IVlember Maguire: That's what hell suggesting. I was saying I' would prefer a
r9 little shorter~term and since we"re making the loan,, we get to dictate. some terms .of the
20 loan,; I was saying-either 24 months f,ron approval of the loan or 18 months from when
21 ~ fhey receive it,
22
23 Council Member. Keller: Do we get airline: miles from this?
24
Zs Council Member Maguire: Never mind, it's. not worth it.
26
2~ Council. M'emb'er Torlaft: I'll second the. motion, Council Member Hamilton..
2s (Clerk's note::- There ;was. no motion made to second:}
29
,._
3o Mayor Thompson;. Let's compromise on that -- it will be two years from January ~1.
31
32 Council Member Hamilton: They are not going to realize tho income until April.
33 '
34 Council Member Maguire: Thaf will .still give fhe.m over 18 months to repay.
3s
36 Council Member Torlatt: Are they going to pay it on a monthly basis or are they going
37 to pay it on =-
38 ..
39 Council Member Maguire: We: can let staff deal with that.
40 .
41 Council ..Member Hamilton: Okay.. January and f would say April, but ,if that',s not in
42 agreemenf I would go to.January.
43
44 Council Member.Keller: And what is the time period?
45 .
46 C'ou.ncif Member Hamilton: Two years..
August 23, 1999
Vol. 33; Page 417
1
2 Council IVlember Keller; Two years from January.
3
4 Mr. Ernst: Can: I get a clarification on this? You are asking us `to pay back a portion ,of
.s that $50,000 beginning in January?
6
~ Council. Member Maguire: No. The loan will be due two years from January 1, 20.00:.
s
9 Council Member'Torlatt: No, I want to see the repayment start earlier.
to
l Council Member Maguire: That's fine. Let's let staff work that out and make them.
12 come back with a couple of .suggestions.
13
14 Goiarc:il Member Torliatt: That's my point. Totally paying on a quarterly basis over a
is two-year basis of $50;000 total.
16
~ MOTION: Council Member Maguire moped, seconded by .Cader-Thompson to adopt
is Resolution 99-170 N.C.S. authorizing City Manager to disperse $50,000 to Petaluma,
19 Com`rn~unity Access'for temporary operations from the Cable Franchise Fee Account.
20
21 AYES: Cader-Thompson, Maguire, Thompson, Torliatt, Hamilton, Healy, Keller
22 NOES: None
23 ABSTAIN: None
24' ABSENT: None
25
26 MOTION PASSED: 7 - 0
27
2s Short Recess
29
30 4. Report and Possible .Action on the Draft Report from Resource Management.
31 International Inc. (RML) on Interim Mandatory Detention Pond Study. (Hargis)
32
33 Nlr. Hargis,: To speed things along, I'm going to just introduce the consultants. 1Ne
34 thought, we'd, shorten our presentation; frying to get it down to around 20 rn_inutes and
3s then there; would be an opportunity for the pub is and the Council to .enter into Things.
36 UVe or.igin.ally structured this as a dialogue and we are not going to be able to do that
37 efficiently and still have the public have a chance to.speak so I'd like to .introduce Don
3s Wagonette from Resource Management International (RML) to present their study.
39
4o Mr. Wagonette (RMI): Thank you very much for the: faith you've had in us in providing
41 this study in a little over 90 days which . I think is a real. important study for the
42 watershed. We :are ,going to hit the high points. I think: the Council knows pretty much
43 what I'm going to be saying. I am going to be saying some of it for the benefit. of the
44 public. First, .our study purpose is. framed as supporting the need to implement an
4s interim detention policy as one element of flood management. I think it's real important..
46 and people keep in .mind that one element of flood management is detention. It isn't
Vol. 33, Page 41:8 August 23, 1999
i the solution. There are a Jot of strategies. that need to be done to manage floods
2 effectively, especially in thiswatershed'.. That will become evident asp more of Tom"s
3 work comes. out. The study time frame focuses on future flood management. We did
4 not analyze, anything in the past. Study limitations. -_ .the predictive capabilities :of the
s hydrologic: model. Please. listen carefully when Tom tells you what:the model.'is capable
6 of telling you and what it isn't capable, of telling you. The. model describes three:
~ detention zones.. I think everyone, got: in the report what is upon the wall :offer here:
s There's green zones and there. is a red zone. in the middle :and there is a, small yellow
9 zone. The detention would be feasible onsite in the green zones,. not, feasible: onsite' in
io the .red zone and would have negligible effects ;in thee: small yellow zone down in 'thee
ii urban ,floor. Detention zones suggest onsite detention and offsite detention. It's really
i2 important that the people: who are here tonight realize 'that these. are conceptual, sites..
F3 Nothing is finalabout any of these. UVe came up with what we thought was. as definitive
14 a set of study' results as possible to move the City forward in trying to develop sortie;
rs kind of flood management policy, but nothing we've done is cast 'in. stone. We"re t . in
~! .9
i6 to move the process: forward. There has got to be some clarification about what we did
i~ as well. We identified several potential sites. using field recognizance; aerial photos and
is field tours., a topographic analysis of the. watershed! omit and' political
and econ
i9 considerations and really what that ..meant was from a political standpoint, we:wanted to
h this is a Cit stud that both:' Cit and Count sites
20 reakesentedt here and. if ~og y y' - y y ~, ~~ :,are
p y u will notice that, on the map,,. as you go around on, the sites;;
22 they cover a pretty broad circle; ;both 'in and out of the City limits. The maps ~in your
23 reports give you the City limits and both the City and County are going toy be involved in
24 this and that's: -also an important element of what we are doing. It is real important: to;
2s know that, the sites have only been ;tentatively identified. W.e didn't `identify every
26 possible site.'that could be .used for detention:. Our major objective was to find and use
27 the model and :update the model. to the best possible: capabilities to develop those.
Zs zones, the .green. and. red and yellow zones! because that's really the best starting point.,
29 It's. almost not our. place to be identifying tentative sites. without a lot more input on; the.
30 limitations of those sites,,, but we wanted fo move the process as much forward. as wee
31 could so.we identified some natural low areas that could be.-used to detain flood-waters
32 with a minimum amount of earth work;now. This study does not take into. account; a lot
33 of earth moving, that could be done on :other "sites. Quickly,, there -are other more
34 specific ofjjectives in addition to flood management, .a lot of benefits from this type. of a
3s strategy. You get. flood management benefits to ~th"e. County and. this .was not a ilent
36 issue.. This was a very loud. issue in this study. Tfie watershed; for us to say ahis is a
37 watershed perspective and to ignore the County would be 'irresponsible.. This is going
3s to be a County/.City solution in the end when.. you do come u~a with a flood .management
39 strategy for the watershed: There's a ~ capability fore wetlands and/or habitat
ao enhancement: 'Don't think ~singfe use on flood management, think multi use -- what's
41 the best use of that water= seasonally when you; are either detaining it or retaining it.
42 Pond design flexibility, there's. an awful lof of neat things that cari be: done i'n this
43 watershed. Retention of polluted runoff =- Tom willtalk mare about this: One policy
44 option is to .require: the first one=inch. of runoff to capture that first flush. of pollutants 'as
45 perhaps one thing that. can be immediately done. f,rorn a'water equality standpoint. That's
46 part of a larger atrategy. And finally, of course; the flood management benefits to the
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 41:9
i City, which. have been well documented throughout this study. We want to emphasize
2 again, this is part' of a watershed~ociented approach and the more people can., as
3 they're thinking. about problems that may come about from what you see on the maps
4 or solutions that come 'later, you`re. building with, this study a water quality foundation:
s We have a lot of water quality information in here, but it!s not the focus of this study
6 because it was fairly. easy to set some criteria. and then give you the background of why.
~ they afe important; both #rom a human health standpoint and from an aquatic habifaf
s which are things we have heard, at prior City Council meetings where this issue. has
9 come up. 1Ne did use the..best available Hydrology and hydraulics for the 90 days.. ,
io There were some cross sections that were done in the field to get a betfer ide_ a of the
i i cross section of flow area in the Petaluma River. 1Ne could do more. .ofi those; the
i2 responsible use,. or nonuse, of detention to manage floods. There are places, where it
i3 should be done. ,There are definitely places where you want to do other things. And
14 finally, I think the best part of this watershed approach is, as Vice-Mayor Keller said
is from the start, a lot ofi'this process has to be open and that's what we've done:' Tom_ is .
~..
16 going to talk to .you about: the .model. and I will .help answer questions;: but I want
1~ everyone, as Project Manager of this., I want e~e.ryone to know that our onlycharge w,as
is to be technically capable and find out and be totally honest with what we find and,. in
i9 fact, there wasn't a big r,.evi'ew cycle and a bunch of sanitizing, of this report. This is pure.
20 hydrology. This 'is the best job that can be done. in 90 days. I have a lot of confidences
2i in Tom and his ability to put this model together and we will be more than happy 'to
22 answer the first wave of any questions about what we did or why we did„ it, but we've
23 always been guided by total openness and honesty on everything,~we're doing. ~.
24 ~ .
2s Tom Burke: _ Thanks,, Don. Mr. Mayor, City Council Members, I appreciate ahe
26 opportunity to present the results of our study here .and given the late time, I'm going.to
2~ go through These overheads rather quickly, but there will be a period for questions and
2s answers afterwards so if people would like to have rno.re detail on what we'-are covering;
29 they can ask those ;questions at that time,: But as Don was talking about the detertion . ;
3o feasibility study evolved from the. City's desire to do a full watershed analysis; but given ,,
3i the time frame it takes to perform that analysis, they .needed some type of policy or
32 .some type of direction.. to go in the. interim time period so that development. and growth ,
33 can still continue within The watershed and to do that we looked at the. possibility. of
34 looking. at j'usf detention as a flood management alter,.natiwe to mitigate the effects' of .
3s development and growth until a more comprehensive study could be accomplished. To
36 do that; we wanted to look at several different things. The first was to_ evaluafe the
3~ water quality conditions in the basis. We know- that detention .and retent'ion• if designed
3s correctly have the capability of ,providing some water quality ,improvement functions and
39 we wanted. to be able to utilize those capabilities if they were needed within the
4o watershed.. 1Ne also wanted to identify areas in the watershed where detention can be
4r implemented:, We knew from previous studies: that given the. hydrology of the
42 watershed, which..I will. go into in a little while, that detention was not always beneficial: if'
43 placed in certain areas of the basin.. On a local scale given certain sub basins,
44 detention. can be beneficial ':in reducing the flood peak,, but when you combine those:
4s different tributaries onto the main stem,. of the Petaluma River; the way they combine
46 doesn't always provide beneficial effects to flooding downstream. Sometimes it could:.
Vol. 33, Page 420 August 23, 1999
i increase flooding, sometimes it could decrease: flooding and. we want, to determine what
2 areas of the basin would cause those. different. effects:.. Lastly,, we wanted.. to locafe
3 potential regional detention sitesthat would allow large-scale detention for development
4 to utilize if development were to occur in areas where- detention was riot. feasible -or
s beneficial on a local, basis.. And finally; identify other models that could be utilized. in a.
6 more comprelie;nsive watershed study. Reviewing really quickly, why do we want to
~ look at detention?' What exactly does .detention do that is: beneficial to: managing
g floods? V1[hat. l have here'is two'hyd~ro graphs -- the: y-axis here: I have discharge and J
9 have x-axis it shows the time frame during a atorm: If' you look.. at this first nine here, this
io is actually l_iberfy Creek -it's flowing into Denman Flats. You can see that it has a very
ii tall peak: arid you .can. see that it's occurring slightly -after 12:00 a:m. Vl/hat, is shown
12 here is that for'the natural detention that is being provided within Denman Flafs which;is
3 a large flat";area that floods out during storm events that is just upstream of the.
14: confluence. with 'the 1N,illow Brook Creek and thee. 'Petal'uma River, after Liberty Creek
is .flows. through that detention area; you can see; that the flood; peak has been. reduced
i6 and it occurs dater .in time. This :is a typical phenomena that's provided by storage and
i~ detention that you can:,utilize in natural areas as it occurs :here in Denman Flats or if, you
rs design storage„;you can actually create this eff,ect'un other areas of the basin. Now; this
l9 looks pretty 'good. You are providing a' decrease in your flood .peak: and you are
Zo delaying it iri time: It sounds like it would be .beneficial almost anywhere within.fhe
2i watershed: As I men'tioned'. earlier, when you look at the .different tributaries within the
22 . P:etalucna:watershed, you find, that due 'to the. geometries and the topography of these
23 `ba'sins, the peaks are occurring at different times. So,`some areas are peaking. easier
24 and some:'areas are peaking later. 1Nhen you start changing the tuning of these peaks:
zs by, providing detegti:on in certain areas,. you start .combining these .hydro'. graphs 'in
z6 _. different fashions and` you can .often cause an increase in the flood peak' downstream.
2~ Thin hydro graph we have: down here shows the net effect of .combining these. different
2s hydrographs together: and this is what we really need to look of is once yo..u,have
29. cornbined`~all the tributaries together that are flowing into the Petaluma ':River, what is
3o the. net. resulting hydrograph that you see in the downstream areas. As you change ;the
3i timing of these different hydrog,raphs you are. going, to change the net resulting
32 .hydrograph that occurs on the Petaluma Riper. 1Ne want to make sure that whe°re we
33 .put detention,, it:does'notcause this downstream hydrograph to increase because if that
34 were to .increase, we: would hate a, greater .peak flow downstream and ,increase, in
3s #looding in'the lower regions of the river:
36
37 Council Member Maguire: Which;,`Tom, for people watching~on T.V'., they,may not be
3s able to see, but, that Iowe'r hydrograph hits 6,000 cubic: feet. per- second whereas the
39 upper one ,peaks at. just a little over 2,,000 so .although they look on "the ..graph about the
4o same size; the lower one is about three times --
42 IVIr. Burke: Yeah, the scale on the two graphs 'is `different o you. are- increasing the
43 flow quite a bit as you: combine. all of these 'because they are additive and so as you'
44 add each of these differenf hydrographs together;, you are: getting a much larger peak
4s downstream.. 1Nhat we~ are looking at when. we are trying. to analyze defe;ntior i"s look. at
46 the varying tirime to peak flow that we have on each of the tributaries and look at the
' August 23, 1999 Vol. 33; Page 421
i change thaf detention snakes to. the: magn#ude and timing of the peak flow for each, of
ributaries that were `analyzing and look.. at how all the fributaries combine when
2 he t
3 they come. together' on, the main stem of the river and how that results in the net ,peak
4 flow that's occurring downstream and the flooding that, would result from that. In order
s to analyze -that, we wanted to develop a calibrated watershed model that would allow us
. 6 to run through the different alternatives of detention. in different locations throughout the
~ basin. We a so wanted to look at the .evaluation of water quality. impacts from. each
s detention location aril whether or not that would provide any benefit. to the overall water
9 quality within the watershed. Briefly; development within. the water"shed causes several
io different effects to flow. You have an increase in volume of runoff that's occurring from
li development: You are also causing an increase or shortening of the time frame ;that it
i2 takes for this runoff to occur because you have .more. impervious surfaces and you have
i3 flatter, smoother surfaces for the peak hydrograph or the peak flow coming off of these
is developed surfaces is occurring at a faster time. You also have a decrease in the water
is quality due to the' influence of man in these. developed areas and reduction in infiltration
i6 due to the pervious surfaces like concrete, pavement, roof'surfaces.
i~
is Council., Member Maguire: Is the greatest decrease in water quality due to petroleum
i9 byproducts?
ao
ai Mr. Burke: It varies - it''s hard to say whether that would be the, dominant influence,.. It
22 depends on what type of development is occurring. Now for shopping malls, things like
23 that, where you have large parking surfaces :and. you :hake a lot of vehicle. traffic, that's ,a
24 large influence into the water quality parameters you have. If you have industrial
2s facilities or if you'have residential areas where. you're; getting pesticides and herbicides
26 that are being applied to the lawn surfaces and vegetated areas, then that. may .be the
27 dominant influence. A lot of the changes in: runoff have also been due topast
2s management practices that have typically dealt with., rather than looking. at storing the
z9 water on the site or storing water within the developed areas, it's looked. at trying to ;get.
3o rid of the: water faster. If looked. at straightening channels, improving and widening .
3i these creeks and rivets thaf we've had which have helped remove.-the water,from the
32 upper watershed, but :often results in increased flooding downstream... The model that
33 we chose to use was an .existing .Agency 1 Flood Hydrograph model.. This is a model
~. 34 developed by the Corps of Engineers .and. has been in use f_or probably around 25
3s `years. The model was originally put together by fihe Sonoma County Water Agency, but,
36 ,what we wanted to do was take this model. that was developed in the. early; rnid-1980's,
. 3~ and update the components of the model to reflect the existing .conditions of runoff 'in
- 3a ,thee basin today. 1Ne did that by looking at they City of I?etafuma's engineering facility
Y 3a ~ maps for the storm drainage system within the City. We also talked to Sonoma County
' 40 ,W-titer Agency antl looked. of the: changes to the storm drain system that has occurred
. 4i within the County's areas through the watershed and we've .also looked at USGS orth,o
a2 photography of the watershed, flown in the mid-1990's to Gook at the change. and the
a3 'land use patterns thathave occurred in the basin and modified the model to account.for
as those land use changes as they affect runoff. Once the model was updated to the
45 existing conditions_in the basin, we wanted to calibrate the model to known data. This
~~ 46 .gives us a higher degree of competence in that the model as representing the true.
Vol. 33, Page 422 August 23,.1999
i conditions. of runoff in the basin and reflects the: ability fir the. model to ..match ;,the
2 correct. timing as well as magnitude of runoff that occurs_ on different storm,.events. The
. :.
3 wa we i _ t
y hat was to calibrate the model. °to the existing alert data that the-City has
4 collected. T s
hey have eight precipitation gauges and five river stage :gauges located
s throughout the: watershed`. For several .storm events. m February of` 19.98„ we, calibrated
~ the model 'to the exact precipitation and runoff 'that was observed during ~eaeh of these
~ events. This is the snap of the watershed showing the main sub ;basins thaf', we_ re
s developed and utilized within the model. There are approximately "2'0 sub. basins within.
9 the. watershed;. Each of them that were modeled .;analyzed. the different; tributary
io geometries, that were used, the elevation changes within each watershed; the land use
ii patterns; in each watershed and the precipitation changes across the basin that were
12 occurring' within each of the storm 'events that were used in the model. Once 'we have
i3 the calibratedmodel; we wanted to evaluate different detention ~scenarros,. W'e wanted
i4 to look at determining which zones within the watershed we could :apply detention'.. and
is have beneficial effects to flood management on. a local basis which means the tnbufary
i6 that 'the detention basin 'is located on as well as regionally meaning that if' does. not,
i~ have adverse effects.. to the main. stem of""the Petaluma downstream of its confluence
is with the rider. 1Ne also. wanted to select locations. for' regional detention. sites that could
i9 be, utilized.'fo,r development when development is occurring in zones that are not
9 y
20 Petaluuma Rive ~ The result,of that anal hs s wastthe dher local) or downstream, on the
y e meation of :these three different
22 zones that D'on alked about earlier,. Basically; we found that,- for the Lynch and
23 Washington Creek watersheds,. because they are. peaking so early;. that we eoultl
24 provide detention on those watersheds and it`would. notad~ersely interactwith`the other
2s tributaries that are draining-to the :Petaluma River: For the Corona; Capri, V1/illow Brook
z6 and Leehow watersheds, we found thaf they areoccurring in such away-that: if'we were
27 to provide detention within these ;a"real as, outline,d.`in this red':zone that the peaks woald'i
2s, then come close
r'to coinciding with the peaks that are occurring off of Liberty and Marin
29 Greek systems by having those peaks occur closer and cl~s'er together in time. 'We
30 -then multiply the effect. or theadditive effect of those flows :and we have.:an increase "in
3i flow downstream and an increase in flooding. that would occur. The Marin Creek area
32 we found that we were able to provide detention "in that area. and have beneficial effects
33 locally as well as regionally downstream ,in the Retaluma River because -this is`the last
the last sub basin within the watershed that'is peaking so since it's the last "
3s~ oneeto peak, if we delay its peak further "in `time, we're not interfering with an,y of the
36 other peaks that are .occurring and we're not going to be `increasing the flows. any. And '
3~ lastly, we went~through a review of the basin by looking at aerial photography as well`~as
3s field visits to these different: sites .to determine what type of sites could `be mailable ;for.
39 use in regional detention sites.. Thiss isn'treally an exhaustive: list. of the sites that;:are
4o available, but it's onl, t ical of the t
41 detention and as we found o.ut throu h, ype of sites that can be utilized for :regional
g the :analysis, some of these ?sites occurred ih~a,
42 zone: that detention 'really is not beneficial so they were eliminated firorn the process, but
43 other sites were found to be" in areas. that were beneficial and would probably merit
44 further"investigation as totheir availability. ,
45
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Rage 423
i
2
3
4
5
6
Council Member Maguire: Excuse rne, Tom, that's a little different than the :map :that's.
in the draft document on .Figure ES3 which shows ome additional candidate detention
sites that are feasible in the Lynch Creek, upper 1Nashington. Creek,, East Washington
Creek section on the right. Did I understand you to say that that watershed is the one
that peaks first out of all of them? r ,.
~ Mr. Burke:
s others.
9
The Lynch .and the Washington Creek watersheds peak., earlier than all the:
µ, ,
ro Council IVlember fVlaguire
it
,; .
And the Marin .area oh.-the opposite,side peaks last.
12 Mr. Burke: That's correct. - - -
13 - -
14 Council Member Maguire: But this .graphic that you've ;got shows that there's not.
is much in .the way of .detention sites in=the- Lynch/1Nashington 'watershed. Is that, an.
16 updated version than what's in~the'book;'which does have a pretty significant detention.
i~ and a couple of smalls in that watershed? ~ ,-
is - ~ -
r9 Mr. Burke:. No, the one in the report is the updated` g-raphic. There are additional sites
Zo that didn't make it onto this graph here that we found` were feasible for detention.
21 .,
22 Council Member Maguire:. So even. though that's>the first--peaking watershed, yo.u can
23 have detention sites there -- is that because yota're chopping-off.tli;e peak, spreading the
24 peak as it were for that specific watershed? '~ "_ `r
,;
25 -
26 Mr. Burke: Yes; it's due .to actually two things. One, because .it's. peaking. so much
27 earlier than the other watersheds,. you can delay it a little b;it without having it interfere
as with the other tributaries that are .draining to the main stem of the river, but two it's also
29 because of the hydro graph 'or the runoff as if changes in time from these partictalar stab
3o basins is rather flat and so since it is flat, it's not really, it doesn't have a dramatic peak
31 that will strongly'nfluence it.
32
33 Council Member IVlaguire: Don't you want to encourage it, that first peaking
34 watershed, to go ahead and peak and pass off?
35
36 Mr: Burke: If you could increase it faster, you would actually have a beneficial effect;.
37 .but-also 'in that area because the hydro graph'is fairly flat, and because it is occurring so
3s early, you could actually detain. water in those basins and have that have a beneficial
39 effect as well.
40
41 .Council Member Maguire:: Okay, so if yo:u detain in that area, are you able to deta_ in
42 the water passed the other watershed peaks in time -- passed it.
43
44 Mr. Burke: No, the effects of the detainment would not get anywhere near the peak of
4s the other watersheds. ~,
46
Vol. 33, Page 424 August 23, 1999
1 Council Member Maguire: So; •it:.would still, the...peak would. come and go before the
2 other watersheds begin to peak? ~. .
3
4 Mr. Burke: That's correct.
5 _ _ ,
6 Council Member.Maguire. So, why`detain in that:case.'in that watershed?
~, ,-.. _
s Mr. Burke: Because you want ~to be: able to mitigate the .effects -- let metake a step
9 back here a little bit. 'I probably `wasn`t very. clear on the ,effects of detention: Detention'
to really has tw,o effects. One, whch..is,,local, and:. fhe other, which is regional. The local.
11 effect, and we':LI cake `Washington Creek as an example; if we were to place detention
12 on V1/ash'ington Creek; locally .it.. would be beneficial to the flooding on Washington:
r3 Creek. ~ ... .
14 ..
is
16
17
la
19
20
21
22
Council Member .Maguire: , Qh, I see;, so for local. smaller scale flooding as opposed fo
main stem. larger`,scale ,flooding,~`the`re ..are still the local smaller scale 6erefits?
Mr. Burke: Yes,, in all of these zones, even the ones that. are .note beneficial :on a
__
regional scale; you will get local benefits by providing detention.
Council Member Maguire; Okay, great, thanks, Tom.
23 Council Member Healy: Just to follow up on that briefly then, what you are saying, the
2a one that 'is shown here; these are regional detention site facilities as opposed to local
2s detention site facilities and maybe the~one of ES3' is both, is that.a fair characterization?
26
2~ Mr. Burke:. No; actually„ both ~of those are regional, candidate regional. detention sites
2s that can be utilized for thaf: purpose. 1Ne; 'initially investigated for. utilization -and that;
29 pu.rpo e,; but as'we found out in the analysis; some of those were not available because.
30 of the. effects that they might heave downstream on the main stem of the P'etalurna
31 River.
32
33 Council IVlember Healy: Okay, thank you.
34
3s ~Co.uncil 'Member Torliatt Mr. 'Mayor, f have quite a few questions,. but I'm sure
36 because of the .hour; we're' not going to dive. into them,, but l did want toy say that ,I felt
37 that this report. was really easy to, read and. I thought it. was 'easy for the layperson to
38 comprehend. I 'was 'really impressed,: and 1 thought I even. understood it; One of the
39 things that was ~e.ry hard 'to distinguish in this report was the maps and I'm sure it was
4o because.. of the time constraints. 1Ne weren't able to identify- the parcels that are
41 potentially being looked. at -for detention because we all want to say whose property is it
42 and I've heard through the grapevine that folks that are in areas in the C:aunty are
43 thinking there's .going to be eminent domain proceedings and all of these scary things
44 that we are not even to yet and I don't plan on going .there;, but I just wanted to, thank
,:,.,
4s you for a really great~~report. ..
46
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33 Page-4'25
i Mr. Burke: Thanks;, one of the things f suppose we could have been a little bit clear
2 about in the report is that. these. sites that have been identified. here as regional
3 detention sites are :just candidate sites. There are typical of the types of sites that .can
4 be utilized for regional detention, but they are not sites that have been identified as,
s we're going to go after this site and this is the site we want. This only .represents.
6 probably a third' of the sites that could be utilized for .this.type of storage and in a more
~ comprehensive analysis, we would probably look at these sites in more detail as well as
s the other sites that could be utilized. These are the sites that were relatively easy to
9 identify that could be utilized in this fashion, but they are not at all sites that are
io definitely .being; pursued by the City. They are just representative of those types of
i i sites.
i2
i3 Council Member Healy: I had just a couple of conceptual questions l wanted to run by
14 you': 'The first one is th'e way the maps are set. up and you have the one map with the
is two green areas.,: one. red area, one yellow area and that is understandable, buf if you're
16 talking :about coincident.. peaks, it's not clear fo me why you have to treat each entire
i~ creekwafershed-as being in a single color area. It seems to me, for instance, in the red
is area -- if you could put, that one 'back up for people -- that you could get benefit. by
i9 having either~one of two things., either detention ponds that are located further out from
20 the center of the City, and this is just kind, of my layperson's perspective, that would.
Zi catch some of the later flowing waters and` letthe water that gets closer to the center of
a2 town go through unimpeded or 'secondly, that you could have in selected areas
z3 'detention ponds that would not be, to use a simple term, dumb that wouldn't just return
24 their water automatically. That someone would .actually have to go up there and make
2s sure the conditions were appropriate #or releasing the water. Could you address those.
26 two issues ifi~l' was to articulate enough for you to understand them?
27
2s Mr. ~Burke:~ ~ No,~ it's a good point~to me made because part of the analysis -what we did
29 is when we looked at the different detention sites is that we started low. 1Ne looked at
3o individual watershed or sub basin independently and we started low in the sub ,basin.
3i and we inserted detention ponds at different intervals, moving up the watershed to
32 determine,. we really didn't anticipate 'the whole watershed. Each of these sub basins
33 would 6e a complete color. 1Ne thought we would find a zone that made a little circular
34 ar"c around the Gity and things outward from that zone would be beneficial, buf things
3s within that zone probably would not be, but as we started analyzing the situation, we
36 found that within the area. that it is feasible to put. detention as you move up through
3~ each one of. these sub basins, we found 'that it still was not beneficial within that red,
3s zone:. -But. we did. not analyze, to your second question, we did not analyze smart
39 detention basins in that they are automated `in some. fashion or require some: type of
4o i~nanual control for the release of the water after a storm event were to occur. The
4;1 complexities of that type of design are too numerous to investigate in such a short
42 Study.
43
44 Council Member Healy: Okay, since that was so quick, could you just. tell us briefly
4s what the next steps would be from here?
46
Vol. 33, Page 426 August 23, 1.999
i Mr. Burke: I would think the next steps would be to nook, try to select three to "fire of
2 the most prominent sites thaf .could ,b,e utilized for a regio_ nal detenfiori and develop
3 conceptual designs for those sites to see if they would really be feasible. in being utilized
4 for regional detention.
s
6 Council .IVlember. Healy:. JNhaf kind of a time. frame would you anticipate for- that if the
~ City wanted to ,proceed with that?
a
9 ;1171r. Burke: I would say probably three to four months.
io
ii Council 'Member Keller: Thank you, guys; for doing this: This is an .extremely
12 important first-step. in making our way through the --
I3
la Mr. Burke: We really appreciate the opportunity. I,t was a really fun project actually:,- .,
is
i6 Council .Member Keller: So, I take it all back: Just be glad you don't-work for AT&~T.
i~ Picking up on Mike's question because you don't spend a lot of time. on it; retention
is where you, are essentially taxing water out of the system for the duratona:of the' storm
y as y
20 ma be d' mberd londsmuch different wa either,-, ou say,. through smart ponds or
y p that have releases after water hits a certain elevation or'it's been
21 ponded fo,r a :certain amount of time.. I'd like to see some. more information on,~:the use.
z2 of retention, because 'I think,what it will do is allow us to take flood peaks. off in probably
23 all of the basins. and if that. water. is released. after the storm peaks or b,y" or after the
2a storm, 24 to 48 hours later, that pond: is now available again for new inflo on next .
2s storms and I would like- to get some ..information on how that kind of mart retention
25 pond could ,be managed as "well, as aIL of the benefits" for ,Langer term 'retention` which
27 you do (ouch on in the report, I am curious in your screening criteria `for` the candidate
2a sites on page 1`7, at the" top:, first paragraph, "an evaluation and screening process
29 ,developed in coordination with. the City staff .eliminated.. sites not expected to be
3o infeasible in addition to' physical characteristics used' in Task 1 criteria-incorporating
31 environmental., economic and political constraints were considered. in the screening
32 process." Since you ,guys are lielp:'ng us: to make policy derisions; could. you: let. us in
33 on what are these economic and political constraints that made sites infeasible" ~ . `,,
34
3s Mr. 'Burke: I" .can address some of the economic constraints in terms of the availability
36 for site to be. reconfigured to detention basis Ghat, would be feasible. That involves
37 grading of the site:, excavation, to increase; the area, construction of .how it works: that -•"
3a would be necessary, very steep :areas would be harder ~to confrol would require:greafer
39 structural measures in order to "hold water, would require larger amounts of excavation
4o in order to make the detention pond larger enough fo be feasible to be .utilized. in' any
4i kind of large scale or regional type of detention. facility:
42
43 COUncil Member .Keller: So, essentially what.. you've done is made a, cut based on
44 what you figured would, be too~expensi~e from the geographical/geological; perspective
4s although I would like to be able; to see what that information is because certainly the
46 costs of flooding are fare higher than prior Councils have .been willing 'to acknowle"dge
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33; Page 427
~cs may well rove to be even more ex ensive, may prove to 6e well
1 and the economy ~ y p p ~ _
" 2 within the range of the alternative. So I wound like to see .:how, that .cut less criteria
3 worked on any particular ite:
4 " ,
s 'Mr. Burke: Well, actually, it was more a seat. of the pants evaluation as we went:. to
6 each site to determine: what, how feasible it was to develop the structure at that
7 location. Now, what we did in this first cut is go through andeliminate those sites that
s appeared to be infeasible due to geologic ors topographic constraints that were there
9 and we allowed those sites That didn't have fhgse constraints to fall out. Should those
to sites thaf did fall out that didn't appear to have those constraints should they not. be
11 enough, we would have to' go through a second cut and look at some of those more
i2 constraint sites as being fe"asible for detention.
13
14 Council Member Keller: Okay, how about the political constraints, what does that
is mean?
16
1~ Mr. Burke: I .might let Don handle that.
is
19 Don Wagonette (RMI): And, i tried to explain to you earlier that for the most .part it was .
ao making sure that there was an adequate number of ,both city and county sites, but we
2.1 also didn't go in and evaluate. the full: potential of sites that would require a whole lot of
zz knocking down of existing structures and removing a lot of businesses and things. on. its:
23 face in this .report would be just. an affront to the people living and doing business. there:
24 We tried to work around things that are already there with the depressible areas that
as we've ideriffied. Now,, if you want to take the next step and say what if we knocked
26 down a bunch of things. How much more storage space could we get? We'll wait for
27 your guidance on that one.
~..
Zs
...
29 Council IVlember Keller: I think that it is something to bring to us if there are choice.
3o sites like that so that we can make it a public .decis'ion and public weighing of than: rather
31 than it being left to staff or lefit into consulting 'hands about 'how to make, those policy
32 decisions. So the political considerations' 'were primarily a.hen removal of existing
33 businesses or structures or what? " _ .
34
3s Mr. Wagonette: And the whole idea of the Cify and County. It was aCity study, .but we
36 didn't.just'warit to. confine it within the City limits. We had-to ;get'sifes throughout and if
37 was involving the County as well so it was a -," there weren't any real constraints to
3g doing anything in'the County so I guess most of the political_ was we did`h't want to upset
39 any of the existing things that were gorng";on. V1Fhat,:detentioh could ;be fit in among the
4o existing infrastrucfure the way it is th'at~was really~'it. And then if you want to .break that
4.1 down into one. particular area~~was this and another was flint, ~we cq:uld do that; but
42 basically it was where can you put a structure. • ~ .
43 i
44 Mr. Hargis: Were there any sites. actually eliminated .through this- or all the sites
4s shown?
46
Vol. 33, Page 428, August;23,~ 1999
i Mr. Wagonette:, All the sites, that we had. time. fo get into 'the model were shown, but
2 none were eliminated.
3
4 CounciF Member Keller::. So, the mapping of sites on ES2, for instance; those were all
s the sites. that you considered. Okay.. I do have astep-back question, broader question
6 to give us some .kind .of. p"erspective within the realm of detention or retention and; as
~ one tool to reduce peak flows or spread the timings out. UVhat kind "of .acreage foot
s sforage are we talking about to achieve: what kinds: of :results? You know-~, there,'s a, lot.
9 of land that is on this "map or maybe it's not a lot .of land. 1Ne have no way :right now
io within what you,. have. given 'us judging if, for instance, _all this. land was to be used,,. all
i i the .feasible land, was to be used for detention. or retenticm, what kind of difference
i2 would that make and where so that's the .kind of information we would like to get„as ,well
13 from you_so we haver not just a policy;, but we have some idoa about what the impact of
14 the policy because behind that is really the first questio:n for me which i"s what level of
is risk are we willing. to .assume-or provide for in areas that are flood prone and I think unfit:
i6 we really hassle and make our way through that: answer and through. that question,
i~ we're not going to .know how much we want to provide. So I really think we need, ao
ig have that discussion..
L9
20 Cou_ ncil Member Maguire: Yeah, that's my question: What's the magnitude that we're
21 talking about in terms of taking off the peaks? I said it a lot fester than he did..
22
23 Council Member Keller: Thanks, Matt.
24
25 Mr. Wagonette: What we were doing originally with the study was to :identify those
26 areas that could be utilized for regional detention fo help mitigate the effects of
27 development; that may occur in zones that. couldn.'t '
,provide detention on site "for-
2a development. O.ur direction was to find out where we can provide detention on a
z9 development by development basis, so .we did ;not analyze how much development
3o these regional: detention elements would allow in ahe basin,.. but we just opted those up
31 as alternatives to local deferition -that, would occur wifhin that, zone that could not have
32 beneficial efifects_, if detention were located within each ofi those sub basins.
33
34 Council: ,Member Maguire:, .Can you calculate the. net 'benefit of the feasible detention,
3s ponds would have on say the benchmark storm?
36
3s prelim naonest mate lofoatr lemofghum'b ith detailed designs, we could sketch out a
ry . ~ ~ ype, of volumes that we would anticipate m
39 these locations and, look at a net reduction in the~peak that.would occur from. than., That
4o hasn't been done, but. that could be done with the existing model as it is; today. But Ghat.
41 would not necessarily tell ;you how much. development,. or how ..much ,developed area
42 that would allow because that would` all .depend on where those developments
43 occurred, what fype-of decrease. in flow that.~would result from those, so it might nottell
44 you a whole lot just tooking at if '
45 ~ '
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page: 429
i Council. Member IVlaguire: We'd b"e curious to see what the impact on the benchmark
z peaks would be.
3
4 Council Member .Keller:- Yeah, sothat we have some _ sense about what. is the
s acreage foot storage here, for instance:, and to what result so that we really. have a
6 sense, is this within the range. of things that we can do, is this a worthwhile thing that we
_ ~ should do and what can we expect out of it and what should 'the public expect out of it..
s
9 Mr. Wagonette: The level of effort. that we have in the .analysis right now and the data
io that we have on these sites, we can give you a rough ballpark estimate of what that..
i i would be.
~2
13 Council Member Keller: Can. 'you give us .just a sense about that, where is this in
14 magnitude?
is
i6 Mr. Wagonette: ;I wouldn't be able o do that without running that .through the models
- i~ and. analyze that and even running. that through the model with the information we-have; .
is It still would .be a ballpark, estimate because topographicsurveys have not been done of
i9 each of these different sites to determine the actual capacity that could be developed.
Zo
21 Mayor Thompson: In view of the hour, I've got some cards from people in the
az audience that would like to speak ;and I would like to go to that. Thank you. How .many
23 people would. like to speak this evening? I only have three cards and I have a lot more
24 people in the audience: Okay, everyone about three minutes, please.
Zs
26 PIfBLIC COMiVIENT
27
2g Bill Bennett (2902- Bodega Avenue}: Would you dike. me to reserve my comments to
29 the next hearing because I have a lengthy process. I would like to take. this opportunity
3o for the good news. though. And I would like to thank Jane Hamilton and Janice Cader-
31 Thompson for their assistance in arranging meetings with the Water -Agency Public
32 Works, Supervisor :Kerns .and others so that we .have .made great. progress in getting
33 Zone 2A turned around. I, might reserve my comments, other business, because that's
34~ the .good news and now, comes the other news. If you are going to have another ,
3s hearing .because I will reserve them for that time because --
36
a
37 Council Member Hamilton: Mr. Mayor, could you. just give an ,overview because I
38 think what you -.have to say, what I heard yo:u say out in.the hall, I'd just like to hear a
39 little bit more of it and it will give us all something to keep thinking about. I'd like to hear
40 It.
4~1
42 dill, Bennett: I believe that. the process is flawed. I think. the City .has embarked on
43 analyzing County property without going to our local political person, our Supervisor;
44 and without notifying all the: property owners here that are involved. We had :no
4s knowledge of this. VVe thought that this was a study for onsite development in .tle
46 floodplain and all of a sudden we get a hold of a map that you can't read with a
Vol. 33, Page 430 August 23, 1999
i microscope and it's got all. these- detention ponds on it: This is all new to us. I have
2 whole, pages, and pages and pages and pages, l can site you one of the reasons why
3 these are ludicrous and that's polite... On, I don't hare. a page number, in this report and
4 his task, he calls :the maximum allo,win floodin
g g .alternative: Now I want 'to .read you
s one sentence. "There are ma"ny areas where flooding does. not conflict with land use:"
6 Hint, does that make any sense.to anybody:. We all have all Phis land that's designated
~ as these~~detention sites; it's in agriculture. :I personally live,on land that's been with my
s family 140 years. We didn't keep it: so you could'make;a detention or retention pond on
9 it. The natural lay of the land, ,I've lived there a long:.time,; the natural, lay of the land "
io provides for this automatically. All that low area, clear down ,from Skillman, down
i r Rainsville and all retains a lot of` water' until the peak flow "goes and then it drains 'into
12 the creeks,: This is absurdity. This is :nonsense and I question the City's- jurisdiction- of
r3 going "out in the 'County 'and selecting, sites without notifying the property owners. I- am
is really upset about it: What you are doing; i"s enhancing" City property at ,the expense of
is the .rural property, at the .expense- of all' of us. If you. take. our properties and; you put a
i6 and on them, you " ~"
p put a cloud on them. 1Nhat if' I elecfed; to sell my property not that "
i~ it's for,sale, but:,what; if I eleeted'to? Somebody would come and look at it and say,. look
is they,re going to put a flood' pond on your" place:. It's worth x number of dollars. less: I
i9 agree that the whole watershed should. be looked at, but. l believe: the hearing should b"e
20 properly "noticed. I think we should have adequate public hearings to determine ~the~ "
Zi scope of the activities and l would be more than willing to participate in that. With thaf;, I
22 would like ~to withhold alf my" reasons for this. until the next he"acing,. Mr: Mayor. Thank.
23: you.. for the °time. "
24' .
2s Council Member Maguire: Mr.~ Mayor; I would just like to point out that, Bill; this is a
26 study: We haven't planned' anything around it; it's just-: a atudy at this point.
27
2s Mr. ,Bennett: I understand; Mr. Maguire, but I think this is_ the same way; the Zone 2A
29 tax started so I m apprehensiveabout itrand I: think we need fair. input into the process..
30
31 Council Member" Flealy: Mr. Mayor, 'if I "could add one more point-and the City,Attorney
32 can correct :me if I'm wrong, but to put. "the rural landowners' cninds° of ease, my
33 understanding is" that the City does not .have .eminent domain. rights or powers outside
34 our City .limits under most circumstances and I ,don't '.know of any exception, here
3s perhaps.
36 -
37 City Attorney Rich Rudnansky: That is true under most circumstances. There are
3s some: exceptions.,, but I don`t know if those exceptions would apply in this instance.
39
4o Council Member Torliatt: Ands, Mr. 'Mayor, I don`t ee at least at Phis pont'in tune the
4!r City going out and acquiring these lands toallow development within the City. That's:
42 not something that I 'am particularly in the. business; of doing right now -:and if that were
43 to acfually; :if someone needed,. if a private property owner needed detention facilities,
44 then phat's their .deal:: I don't see the City subsidizing on development° to build. in th°e:
4s flood lain.
46
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page 431
1 Mr. Wagonettes Mr: Mayor; l just uvanted to re-`stress that these are conceptual marks,
2 they are not projects specific and as the consultant, indicated.; this is representative of
3 the type of land that coultl be developed. There are a lot more sites. out th~ece within 90.
4 days. We J'ooked at things that were easy to drive ~by, looked at .even some of fhe
s mapping. Our origihal concept was not to ;get projects specific because we didn't want
6 people to th'irik we are. coming out to develop a detention pond on your property. These.
~ are the areas., the_ se are the places on tributaries and areas within a tributary that
s detention appears feasible based upon the hydraulic modeling.
to Mr. Flargis: So the parcels have not. been 'identified -- it is deliberately not parcel
11 specific at this stage for the reason-that is mentioned. This is generalized based upon
12 the Council's direction,. then it can be parcel specific with the details and whatever
13 hearings with or without the County can proceed. , '
14 ',
,..
is Council Member Torl%att: I also want to say that I totally agree with. Mr. Bennett that
16 Zone 2A ne'eds 'to be involved with this, o.ur Supervisor needs. to beinvolved with. this.
1~ We've asked when our .Supervisor has. come to our :meetings that .we talk about this
is issue. It has to be a join CountylCity project and I would fhink,we'd all be sitting. at~the
r9 table and I believe. at,our next meeting with our Supervisor; this. watershed issue none
20 of the things that is supposed to be agendized. So this is just the beginning of a: larger
21 process and I`m glad you are a part of it. ;, t ~ _
22 ~ .
23 Geoffrey FL Cartwright (56 Rocca Drive): Thank~youu. Mr. Mayor, Council, my name is
24 Geoff Cartwright, 56 Rocca Drive, and 1 am here- with bad news. There has' been
as massive development in the floodplains and there has been increased incidence of
26 flooding in Petaluma and there is additional development being; planned_ in "the
27 floodplains. Today; you have before you the. RMI ,report and' it doses suggest putting:
2s detention ponds out on the rural areas. outside. 'the. CYty~`iimits and on other~people''s
29 property which yo:u heard complained by one -- I see there~~are more here. I chink you
3o have a, well there's not only 'that, you have an economic problem with 'it. There isn't a
31 means by which to proceed with these ponds at this time. _ It's out in the County you
.~„
32 don't have the jurisdiction, o I think you have an economic and political problem i'n the
33 movement of these detention ponds. Therefore, with the. health, safety and welfare 'of
34 this community in mind, I am.goirig to ask you to enact an urgency ordinance"to.prohibit
3s development in the 100-year floodplain above Payran Bridge as indicated, identified, in
36 the FENIA flood insurance rate maps. Now, the Federal'"Government has looked at
37 floodplains. and they have said, well,, gee,. okay, gee, I gaess, -and okay here's flood safe
as insurance snaps and oh, by the way,. Local agencies or I believe the term is entities is
39 responsible. Ladies and :gentlemen, now I suspect thaf there are going to be those who
4o are going to come up: here after me and. they're going to say if you do that I'm .going to
41 sue you. Guess what, f believe you can wiri those suits. If you don't do this, you are
42 going to end up with a whole series of other suits for the damages that are. caused and I
43 know you can't win those suits. I think it is a shame that we have come to this. I think it
44 should have never come to this. It should have stayed at a higher principle, you know,
as property rights are equal to lives, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.
46
Vol. 33, Page 432 August23, 1.999
i Maxine Durney (Ely Road): I come from the Southern. Sonoma County Resource
2 Conversation District; which is .not a -politically active .B.oarc~'. We se.rye a good many
3 farmers and ranchers in the ar"ea, but we. do not take. political sfance on things: that
4 elected officials are indeed going to take political stands on ao we really come with
s suggestions more than anything else. 1Ne serve: man ; man- -farmers and dai ;mien.
y, y ry ~:
6 and. cattlemen ,and so forth. in #his area :and i~n the Stemple Creek area ,and in Sonoma
~ Valley. Therefore, we have wonderful .contacts with, a ood man '
g y people. -that have.
s confidence in our staff and. What, we are able to do in finding, money for projects that
9 they °would like to d.o on their own properties. Therefore; we have a. good mailing, List.
io My particular inter.,est is education... VVe have helped to establish in the schools many
i i adopt-a-watershed programs. I have another suggestion to make. and that is that we
12 put names: on the. creeks throughout the watersheds. YOU"re going to have an informed
13 public if they drive around~•~and cross a, creek. that. they see. a name on the. creek. I.
i4 would like to invite the City. Council.,. the appropriate agencies in the County, possibly
is the FloodConfrol .District, to work together and get the creeks named, in thrs watershed.
i6 Another Thing that we have done for education is to establish Watershed' Councils which
i~ is meeting, and. is going to: be intensely interested' in what you are doing. here toni"ght
is They would be good audrenee for you and Jeff Peters is here 'to tell,you; a.little bit about
i9 the W' atershed Council and the study that we have done.. May I invite Jeff" Peters" fo the
Zo podium? Thank ;you, ~ •
21 ,
22 Cou-Heil: Member Maguire: A.;quick question, Maxine.. Are you suggesting that we
'23 might avail ourselves.of your mailing: list to .inform ,people? .
24 '.
2s Ms.,~Durney,: I th'ink`so'-'I think that.would. be good.
26
27 Jeff' Peters (1',$' Burger Lane): Thanks, Maxi.ne:. I'm Jeff Peters., 18 Burger Lane., As
2s Maxine indicated',"we haue started' a, Watershed Council to help farmers and: ranchers in
29 the: watershed deal with a lot,. of water resources-related :issues
- ,principally :water quality,
3o b.ut also .is a vehicle ,perhaps that the City' could fakeadvantage of in .contacting and
31 working"with some of the rural and Watershed residents in exchanging information .and
32 views on how to solve, to begin to address some of the flood problems in:;the`watershe,d
33 here. So, I would` invite `the City to' work. with this so far very informal organization in
34 that regard, . VVe are'"also trying to obtain, funding .from various state. and.. federal
3s agencies to 'b'egin to implement some water quality ;improvements,, stream; banks
36 stabilization, stream restoration in ome of the rural areas of.the Watershed and that's
37 whaf we're abouf. Changing the subject here, I did look at the; report and 1 also thought
3s rt was wail written,, but have` a' couple of quick comments that I'll ~giue, I :.noticed.: that, :the
39 Adobe Creek watershed ,the :necessity to deal with onsite detention 'issues:
40. Although Adobe Creek doesn't contribute to flooding in: the Payran area,, I think there
41 are some emine.nt~ flood hazards on Various reaches of Adobe through„ adjacent to, that.
42 you Very well know about:.
43
44 Council Member Hamilton' `There sure are.
45
46 (LAUGHTER)
August 23, 1999
Vol. 33; Page 433
2 Council Member Keller: We fixed' that.
3
4 IIAr. Peters: Yeah, even lower in ahe watershed through Casa del Oro, that subdivision,
s and some other areas are really at risk and you might want to make sure that the
6 Adobe Creek watershed is addressed in the study. I'm .not sure whether it was included:
~ in your model or not?
s
9 Mr. Burke: No, we didn't include that.
to
11 Council Member T.orliatt: That can be one of the next steps we take.
lz
13 ~Mr. Peters: The other comment or suspicion I have! I should say.,. is some of the
~~ i4.~lNestside drainages, although. they. are. natural flood detention areas and over bank.
is -flood detention areas, I think that problem has Veen, exacerbated over the last 20 or
16 more years due to. siltation in the stream ways that`s promoting over bank flooding.
lz That is.a very big maintenance issue and I would invite you to think about how possible:
~18 addressing` chose: stream maintenance issues for drainage and flood relief would effect
19 your consideration .of detention in those areas.
zo
2i~ 'IVlayor.Tfompson: Thank you. Qane Reilly-Torres please.
'22'
23. Diane' ,Really-Torres: 'Thank you. Diane.. Reilly-Torres.,. Rainier Avenue. I am really
24 tired..,. Are you going to be taking an action tonight as far as authorizing additional
2s -funding~for the.study? Can somebody tell me?
26.
27 Mayor Thompson: No.
Zs .
29 Ms.. Reilly-Torres: Okay. Then you are. going to have another meeting, .right; I guess,
3o so I won't take a lot of time..
31
32 Mayor Thompson: Yes.
33
34 Ms. Reilly-Torres: I do have a couple of questions though because: I am r_.eally
_ _ ,
3s concerned about our money being_spent on consultants. and I hope I don't offend.. either'
36 of you two: people, but I'm sorry. I know you both have been around for a long time and
3~ I know you know the area very well. One, I know you have a contract with us and you
38 have certain=tasks, L.guess, you are supposed to. do for what we are paying you to do. I
39 know we asked you to look at detention ponds Ghat were- going. to be going, in or are in
4o and I want :to, know if that was done, specifically on the eastside of the shopping center
41 and the urban separator.
42
43 Mr. Burke:: Could yo,u clarify that?
44
45 Ms. Reilly-Torres:; Weal; it says. in the scope here in. the task that you. were going to
46 look at -- it was Task 3, evaluate and screen detention sites, it says you are going to --
Vo{. 33, Page 434 Aygust 23, 1999
1 emphasis wilt be placed on those parcels. that are most. well suited. for detention,
2 including available urban separator lands, parks, ball' fields. .
3
4 Mr. Burke: We did analyze those areas and those are included ~in the figure. in the
s report -- they are probably p"ink. .
6
Ms. Reilly-Torres: Is that good or bad;?
9 Mr: Burket Some of them. occurred. in. areas -- °the urban separator was in a good
ro section that .would'. allow detention, but some of the others that we looked at were, not.
11 The heritage is in an :area that. would, not have: beneficial effects for :detention.. We
r2 would have- to look into more detail for that particular site to see what its effects would
13 be. .
14
is Ms. Reilly-Torres: 'I don't mean to put :you on the: pot. It's, not done m anywa-y that it`s
16 supposed, fo ke, but it'`s: not; ao maybe you can address that and ,I ;am just really
1~ concerned aboutthe money being spent the way'it's being spent. Thank you:
is
. _.
19 Mayor Thompson; ',pick l_ieb. ~ ~ .
ao . ~~~ ~~
2i Dick Lieb (.One Bodega Avenue): I have nothing to do with Santa Claus this time up _., ; ..
22 here.; I'II cut my remarks real °shorf. Basically; you have received a letter from, Burbank .
23 Housing, John Morgan, regarding this. I understood this from Bonne Gaebler., actually,:. ~~
..
Za Well, this_ is conci'selywhat hthink we are talking about. As you know, Burbank; the aow-
Zs income housing; who I'm wearing that hat tonight, is low ine~me housing that we have
26 right now 'on the ,drawing board -and have HUD funding 'in hand for the Edith Street
27 project which we brought to you for entitlements, general plan.. We have the..
_ ~ ..
2a entitlements. There's a ;sche,dule there and to and behold the first ti,rrme we app ied we
29 got a HUD loan, which kind,. of surprised us because ~we scored highest. in :the HU,D''
3o region where.'San. Francisco is th`e headquarters and we have a' schedule to ..adhere to
3i and one of the fears is 'if there- is a mgratoriurn put on wherever; Lakeville Bridge; or
32 wherever it's put on upstream, and we're even. below where yo,u; put a morator.:iurn. on,.~
33 we would. have to stop working on the project and defer it and: -that's where we are.
34 because we have to tell HUD, look, we have a moratoriurri `thrown. on ou_r project and .
3s 'we don't like to see this because maybe in subsequent years we would ask H,UD(and
36 they would °say; ,Iook;..Petaluma is: too unpredictable. W:e're not._in a .ffoodplai'n in that.
37 area. Two, engineers have ;told us that and our e:ngi`neer right now working on it, we're
3s not in -a floodplain'. f have kept in touch with: Tom ,Hargis the last many months and" he
39 says, Dick, we have to wait for the RMI study. and wait''for a Council policy.. But what
4o I'm here to ask tonight is that... '.these two or' three+ small, or whatever it is; small low-
4z That s what I m askind lon behalf ofsPEPrapd jebfs be exempt from ariy moratorium'.
' g elieve the Burbank situation issimilar,
43 although they've put a hold on theirs for two years., but.., I `feel that is because of a
44 possible moratorium. and so forth.. ,Maybe: they have some problems on~: their project,
4s but we at P;EP would like tq be kept on schedule:'with our construction.: Hopefully, if'
46 everything goes right, 'we told N.UD we would. be under' construction next spring and
August 23, 1999 Vol. 33, Page A35
1 would have 23 happy campers at the end of the year 2000,, or the first part of 2001..,. so
2 that's what I am here to. ask ,you tonight.
3 -.
4 Council'Member Keller.: First of all, Dick; just to tet you rest a lot easier any proposed
s moratorium doesn't affect projects that are. already app-roved.
6
~ Mr. Lieb: That's good news to ,hear be-cause I think we were concerned. That's wh:y
s we're here.
9
to Council iVlember Keller: Yeah... Not a question at all.
11
12 Mr. Lieb: 1Nhen you say approved, do you mean he entitlements that have been
13 given, but not a building, permit because we are working to get the permit.
14
is Council Member Keller: Yes. Not a ,problem. Thank .you. I have some target areas
16 that I would like to see us do some additional. work on and .maybe this will .give us a
17 path to make our way through this series of information and get something out of it.
is This has got to 'be. continued.
19
20 Mayor Thompson: Mr. Keller requested just a brief moment and as did Ms.. Hamilton..
21 ' . . .
22 Council Member Keller: One~`is I think we need to have a discussion about finding the
23 acceptable risks,. where'they are and for whom they :are. Without that, we really, .have
24 no idea about how far we want to go with any particular mediation of flood problems. I
as would like to see us look at an ordinance, to expand the zero net fill. I would like to see
26 us work on a very aggressive cooperative agreement with the County for controls
27 outside the City limits o,n additional., storm water run-off, particularly as the develop.rnent
2s proceeds in Penngrove; I think we „need to have th'e County in here, Public Vl/orks,
29 Permitting and our Supervisor so we can get. those kinds of controls in place as soon as
3o possible. Likewise;. I'd 'Like to see us. take a look of an ordinance for zero increment and
31 storm water run-off on any future developme_ nt in the City. There are examples of, that .
32 already existing- and we may have to tailorthat to deal with the timing question`s, but
33 that's something ~fhat I think we can cake: up pretty easily. And looking at detention or
34 .retention ponds and particularly a concept of banking, we need to see policies,
3s examples,, provisions, financing, liability; how does it happen; how is it financed, who is
36 faking. responsibility,-for t;~-all those kinds of questions. If here are examples that exist,
37 we. need' to see th`af kind of° stuff so~ we can get- a sense of reality on it. And the last
3s thing, given that all of the. stuff is. going to cake quite a bit of time and there are
39 development proposals._that-will continue. to .reach our doorstep, either administratively
40 or up through. the channels ~to our -desk,,1 tliinlr' we need to take a look at and have a
a serious. discussion about a limited moratorium,. post time limited, until we have a
42 complete surface water management plan in hand and limited to an extent, I'm
43 proposing existing mapped floodplain elevation with depths .:rather of one foot or greater
44 with particular concern over the over -bank flow areas `that are in danger themselves sb
4s that we don't build anymore ~ of the kind of neighborhood that we already have. So .
46 those are my requests. 'Thank you.
Vol. 33, Page 436 August 23,1,999
1
2 Council. Member .klamilton:~ Okay, to -sum up, I was kind of~~going'in the same general
3: direction as you. I think the next time we discuss this, J'd like us to focus, on the short-
4 term .flood management, policies within fhe City "limits because that's something we can
s do right now. In the .long- term, I'd like us to work with otr~er groups. and entities :to
6 develop regional flood policies,, which is gong'to #ake some. tirrie. And I just want to ay
that I am particularly against having rural areas. support ,future development within the
s 'City by having detention sites, py giving up land :for detention sites,, and I don't think that
9 is the intent of anybody else here either. I'm just stating that.
0
- ...
ii Council .Member.' Healy: Just_ very briefly;, just to add fo those points.: I'd like to~ see
12 more discussion "about what the next steps are ih general `i'n terms of the near term
i3: issue and what Mr. Keller raised with respect `to development proposals corning in' the
i4 near term. before we can have a `formalized ;policy~n place .and after all, this further work
is has been done. Another approach would be to look at frying to get our arms. around.
i6 what the .costs of implementing this kind of a proposal would k7e and. to get: an .additional
_ _. ._
i~ funding mechanism in place and an additional mitigation fee can. future development that
is could be used to :get, these detention. facil-ities up ,and running quickly once- we locate
19 where they should go.
Zo
Zr. Council' IVlember Torliaft;. UVell, L have, as I said, a lot of questions,. but I'm not goin'g'
22 #o get into it right n,ow at 25 after 11.
i
?3 ~ ,, F
24 COUNCIL AIVD IVIANAG'EMENT REPORTS' `
2S _
26 None ~ - ..
2/ f _
28 CITY MANAGER REPORTS
3o None . , - . .~~
32 ADJ'O.URN ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ `
33 ~ . __ _
34 The meeting adjourned at 11:25 p.m. ~- ~ - " -
35 ,.
36 .. -
37 :~ " ~ _ :: °ClarkTfiompson, IVI'ayor
38 ..,
39 ATTEST: ~ ~: -
40 - - _
41 ~~~~. ~ . _ ~ _
42 _ -.
Beverly J. Kline; City ; erk ~"
4
45 -
46 ~ ****** ",